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Nationals Might Not Stay in D.C.?

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Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:43 pm

stumpak wrote:"I disagree. Take out all the commuters and tourists and what are you left with?"

What can I say, I live here you don't. I'm right and you are wrong.


I live here too, and in a very wealthy area--Chevy Chase (although I have an apartment).

DC is not itself wealthy. Take all of SE--just Anacostia itself if you will. While NE is being gentrified, there's a lot of poverty there, too. City hospitals are closing, taxes are high, and basic government services--trash collecting--doesn't work. I can't blame people like Linda Cropp who say there are bigger priorities.

The metro DC area--Bethesda, Takoma, Arlington, Alexandria, etc.--is wealthy, sure, but the city itself isn't.
I'm back. Sorta.

Do not boo Johnny.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:57 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:
stumpak wrote:Poor? DC is one of the wealthiest areas in the country by any measure--average salary, housing prices, etc. Sure there is a ghetto, but would you say that New York is an impoverished city just becasue the Bronx is craphole, or that LA is a poor city just becasue of South Central?


I disagree. Take out all the commuters and tourists and what are you left with?
Why would you take out the commuters? Just because they don't officially live in D.C. doesn't mean they won't go to games. Look at the Metro area, there are some of the wealthiest areas in the country as stumpak said.

St. Louis City has some of the poorest neighborhoods in my area but I would bet most people that go to Cardinals games come from suburbs.


Maybe you guys are missing my point.
I said originally that the Nationals will have no problem drawing crowds and fans.
My argument has to do with public taxes paying for a stadium. What I am saying is that the people most affected by raising the taxes to pay for it are not the commuters or tourists, but rather the actual residents of DC. Politicians, business owners, and the rest of the very wealthy do not reside in DC, so they will not bear the brunt of the potential tax hike - that will fall onto the people who actually live in DC - people who are not well off and really cant afford the tax hike.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:59 pm

CB: As a former DC resident and now a suburb resident, I see your point, and completely agree.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:02 pm

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:
stumpak wrote:Poor? DC is one of the wealthiest areas in the country by any measure--average salary, housing prices, etc. Sure there is a ghetto, but would you say that New York is an impoverished city just becasue the Bronx is craphole, or that LA is a poor city just becasue of South Central?


I disagree. Take out all the commuters and tourists and what are you left with?
Why would you take out the commuters? Just because they don't officially live in D.C. doesn't mean they won't go to games. Look at the Metro area, there are some of the wealthiest areas in the country as stumpak said.

St. Louis City has some of the poorest neighborhoods in my area but I would bet most people that go to Cardinals games come from suburbs.


Maybe you guys are missing my point.
I said originally that the Nationals will have no problem drawing crowds and fans.
My argument has to do with public taxes paying for a stadium. What I am saying is that the people most affected by raising the taxes to pay for it are not the commuters or tourists, but rather the actual residents of DC. Politicians, business owners, and the rest of the very wealthy do not reside in DC, so they will not bear the brunt of the potential tax hike - that will fall onto the people who actually live in DC - people who are not well off and really cant afford the tax hike.


The reason that the residents pay the taxes is because they also benefit the most. The hotels, bars, restaurants (and the people who work in them) near the stadium get the biggest increase in business from having a prof sports team in the area. That's the old chestnut that the Jays pull out every time the come to the city with their hat in hand. They point to how much business they bring to the area and how much income they generate.

Personally, I don't like that argument. The team is as dependant on the area as the local businesses are dependant on them. At best it is a co-dependance.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:12 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:The reason that the residents pay the taxes is because they also benefit the most. The hotels, bars, restaurants (and the people who work in them) near the stadium get the biggest increase in business from having a prof sports team in the area. That's the old chestnut that the Jays pull out every time the come to the city with their hat in hand. They point to how much business they bring to the area and how much income they generate.

Personally, I don't like that argument. The team is as dependant on the area as the local businesses are dependant on them. At best it is a co-dependance.


The argument against this is that the true beneficiaries of a new ballpark will be the business owners in the area rather than the residents (although the residents would get much needed jobs). If the council agreed to raise taxes to fully fund a new stadium, the residents would pay for it, but the business owners would profit the most. Understanding of course that the business owners more than likely do not reside in DC, but rather commute.
I actually really like the resolution the counsil passed - that it would be a 50/50 split where the residents paid for half and the private sector (essentially non-residents) paid for half. Ideally a group of local business owners who know the benefit of this cooperation will put up the other half of the needed funds.
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Postby jetlag » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:34 pm

http://www.news.uiuc.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html

has an interesting article put out by the cato insitute (a bit to the right libertarian think tank) on how stadiums-sports teams dont have much if any positive economic benefit. The main benefit is prestige.

I'd have to agree that DC (like most cities) needs hospitals and basic city services over a baseball team. Asking for private interests to fund half seems pretty reasonable.

hmm.. renteria just went to the red sox. wow.
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Postby stumpak » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:14 pm

First, I am not a fan of the stadium plan, like any other reasonable person I would rather see the money go to lower taxes or better services for me. However, I believe that stadium financing is coming alrgely from an "entertainment tax", which will be picked up in part by non-DC consumers of said entertainment, both people from the burbs and tourist. As such this is not a direct levy on the population writ large. But fully buy into that ecnomic report, especially if it is produced by CATO!

Finally, I found some per capita income data. DC's percapita income on 1999 was $40,000 vs. a $41,000 national average, and I daresay that this gap has probably been closed over the past five years, so the District is just about spot-on average. It's interesting that 150,000 people in NW DC in their $700,000 condos and 500,000 people living in the crappiness that is the rest of the city equates to the US average.
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Postby StlSluggers » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:21 pm

stumpak wrote:Finally, I found some per capita income data. DC's percapita income on 1999 was $40,000 vs. a $41,000 national average, and I daresay that this gap has probably been closed over the past five years, so the District is just about spot-on average.

Of course, you want to compare that figure to the cost of living. I live in St. Louis, and if I made $41,000, I'd be doing very well for myself. Put that $41,000 out in southern Cali, and I'd be living in a slum, I dare say.

EDIT: Slum is too harsh. Let's just say that $41k in southern Cali isn't much compared to $41k in St. Louis.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:26 pm

stumpak wrote:First, I am not a fan of the stadium plan, like any other reasonable person I would rather see the money go to lower taxes or better services for me. However, I believe that stadium financing is coming alrgely from an "entertainment tax", which will be picked up in part by non-DC consumers of said entertainment, both people from the burbs and tourist. As such this is not a direct levy on the population writ large. But fully buy into that ecnomic report, especially if it is produced by CATO!

Finally, I found some per capita income data. DC's percapita income on 1999 was $40,000 vs. a $41,000 national average, and I daresay that this gap has probably been closed over the past five years, so the District is just about spot-on average. It's interesting that 150,000 people in NW DC in their $700,000 condos and 500,000 people living in the crappiness that is the rest of the city equates to the US average.


Thats interesting. How will this entertainment tax be levied (by increasing the sales tax, income tax, or land tax)? If what you are saying is true, that the wealthy nonresidents will pick up the majority of the public tab, than I'm all for it, but Im skeptical about the details - people have a way of distroting the truth.
I would actually really like to see that study on DCs per capita income - specifically the constraints of the study (who qualifies as a DC resident). Yeah, Im a geek like that.
Also - that study from 1999 was measured at the hight of the economic bubble before our economy suffered through the worst 3 years since the Great Depression, so its safe to assume that both the regional avg and national avg have declined since then.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:50 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:Team Number 2 would not be hard to find...take your pick of KC or Milwaukee. And from an economic viability point of view TB is no winning prize either.


I didn't read all pages so I don't know if this was brought up or not, but you can't just contract a team because they aren't good right now. Kansas City is a great baseball city and the Royals have a storied history. Just because they are in a down time doesn't mean you elminate them.

The Expos don't really have many fans and not many people have much of a sentimental attatchment to them. It would be a travesty to eliminate a team like KC or DET, just because they are bad NOW.
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