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Options for Manny?

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Postby lesgrant » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:57 pm

But the thing is, yanksareback’s fundamental issues are valid.

One championship does not a dynasty make.

While it’s easy to dismiss each individual player on his way out, their collective impact cannot be dismissed.

While it’s very very easy to say 4 years for Pedro is a bad deal. But it’s much harder to say how, specifically, the Sox are going to fill that void. So far, what I’ve seen is a lot of blind faith in Theo – especially on this Manny thing. I have yet to hear from Boston fans specific, available players that would fill the void of Pedro and/or Manny, if he’s dealt.

And Pac, you’re going to have to take it easy. Most all of us in Yankeeland have gotten over losing ONE league championship to the Sox, but it seems that you still haven’t gotten over the many losses your team has had to the Yankees. It appears you’re having problems being the front runner – if you can still make that claim given the way this offseason has gone so far for Theo.

But since you bring the rivalry up, how do you figure the Yankees have a four year losing streak to the Red Sox? If you mean to say that there is a drought in titles in the Bronx then say so. Don’t position it within the context of the Yank/Sox rivalry. You and I both know, the Red Sox had absolutely nothing to do with the Yanks coming up short in any year other than ’04. If I’m wrong, please explain what role the Red Sox played in 2001, 2002, and 2003 in the Yankees losing the World Series but winning the AL East and winning the AL Pennant. We do not have any type of losing streak to you beyond four games and one series.

I guess we can file that comment with the Edgar is better than Jeter chest pound. You seem reasonable, however your emotions are getting the better of you and leading you to overstep your team’s actual accomplishments. You have won A championship in your lifetime – just like the Angels, just like the Braves, just like the Diamondbacks. None of their fans are beating their chests as if they were the only team ever to win, and such a win erased all that came before, and guarantees a title every year from then on. Yankee fans don’t even do that. We just know that we’ll be back with an opportunity to win every year. And that’s what has happened.

BTW: There is no such thing as chemistry in baseball. There are plenty of gimmicks like Rally Caps, Cowboy UP, Lima Time, We Are Family, etc, It’s about the players on the field and what they do when the game comes to them. The Bronx Zoo had more conflicts than a prime time soap opera, but they still won. No one has to like Pedro, but he still wins games and has quality starts. You can rag on Manny for being a head case, but you won’t be able to replace his .308/43/130 with a bunch of “future guys”.

Imagine George trying to deal Sheffield. Come on.
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Postby XTSilver » Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:05 pm

How can you argue that there is no chemistry in baseball?
Just like in any sports the way that players gell, or fail to gell, has a big impact on their season. I understand that clutch is an abstract word and concept but to say chemistry is fake is just going too far.
The game is not played on a stat sheet and a season is not won by the career #s of the players who make up a team.
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Postby Pacman » Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:28 pm

lesgrant wrote: But the thing is, yanksareback’s fundamental issues are valid



Is one of those fundamental issues "The curse of the Bambino has been broken but I can definately see the curse of Manny Ramirez waging on Red Sox nation for another 80 years." ?


lesgrant, you are very reasonable, this other guy is not. Here are the last things I'll say on this issue in this thread (as readers rejoice) :-b

It's December 16th. There are still three-and-a-half months until Opening Day. Obviously, dude, there are going to be more additions and subtractions between now and then. When major leaguers hit free agency, they OFTEN move on -- because at the new much-higher rate, their value to the team they HAD been playing for CHANGES. Derek Lowe, under his just-completed contract, was a GOOD option for the Red Sox. At the rate his agent is currently demanding on the open market, he is simply NOT a good option.

They're going slow with Varitek because while they ABSOLUTELY want to sign him, they don't want to bid against themselves. And to this point, no team has emerged that has made a better offer to Tek that the Sox already have (4 yrs $40 mil, I think). However Tek has thus far not accepted that offer. So as of now, it's a waiting game.

The Sox reached a point of no return with Peedy. Three years was the absolute longest they could go to keep him. Four was NOT a good decision for them. The Mets offered four, Pedro informed the Sox of that, and the Sox said... "We can't offer four. Go and good luck."

Renteria over Cabrerra was an intriguing one to me. That was a place I kind of would have liked to see a little love to the incumbent. But I think Theo et al believe that the Sox need a BIG offensive force at SS in order to be competetive, and Edgar fits that bill. I will ALWAYS love O-Cab... please believe that.


As for non-free agents, this ownership group inherited Manny's contract. And while Manny certainly produces, (I happen to love him), there are SOME scenarios under which the team would be willing to move his contract. Those scenarios would all result in the team being better, or they WOULDN'T DO IT.


Some of that stuff IS dispassionate, but it's smart. If the Sox just immediatly agreed to pay top dollar to ALL of it's free agents from the 04 team, this team would be CRIPPLED by contracts within a year. They do NOT have the unending revenue sources the Yanks do (YES Network, owning the stadium outright, etc.)

Finally, I DO have a chip on my shoulder, which I've defended in other threads. It's really hard to be objective about it, but trust me, the crap I've taken over the years from many Yankee fans (not you, not accusing you of anything) merits that chip.

I don't believe in curses, never did. Can't stand to hear about it now. The Sox didn't win for 86 years because of tangible things like crap owners, crap GMs, crap managers, and players who simply didn't get it done. It never had anything to do with Babe Ruth. I never claimed the Sox had anything to do with the Yanks current WS Championship-less streak, until this year. I was just replying to that pathetic "Curse of Manny" comment.

Anyway, to debate this further would probably p1ss off 99% of the readers, so I'm stopping for now. Again, lesgrant, you know your stuff, and you DO have the right to analyze the current state of the Sox.

Did I say 3 1/2 months..... Geeze I can't wait for April. ;-D



Peace.



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Postby lesgrant » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:51 am

Pacman wrote:
lesgrant wrote: But the thing is, yanksareback’s fundamental issues are valid



Is one of those fundamental issues "The curse of the Bambino has been broken but I can definately see the curse of Manny Ramirez waging on Red Sox nation for another 80 years." ?


lesgrant, you are very reasonable, this other guy is not. Here are the last things I'll say on this issue in this thread (as readers rejoice) :-b

It's December 16th. There are still three-and-a-half months until Opening Day. Obviously, dude, there are going to be more additions and subtractions between now and then. When major leaguers hit free agency, they OFTEN move on -- because at the new much-higher rate, their value to the team they HAD been playing for CHANGES. Derek Lowe, under his just-completed contract, was a GOOD option for the Red Sox. At the rate his agent is currently demanding on the open market, he is simply NOT a good option.

They're going slow with Varitek because while they ABSOLUTELY want to sign him, they don't want to bid against themselves. And to this point, no team has emerged that has made a better offer to Tek that the Sox already have (4 yrs $40 mil, I think). However Tek has thus far not accepted that offer. So as of now, it's a waiting game.

The Sox reached a point of no return with Peedy. Three years was the absolute longest they could go to keep him. Four was NOT a good decision for them. The Mets offered four, Pedro informed the Sox of that, and the Sox said... "We can't offer four. Go and good luck."

Renteria over Cabrerra was an intriguing one to me. That was a place I kind of would have liked to see a little love to the incumbent. But I think Theo et al believe that the Sox need a BIG offensive force at SS in order to be competetive, and Edgar fits that bill. I will ALWAYS love O-Cab... please believe that.


As for non-free agents, this ownership group inherited Manny's contract. And while Manny certainly produces, (I happen to love him), there are SOME scenarios under which the team would be willing to move his contract. Those scenarios would all result in the team being better, or they WOULDN'T DO IT.


Some of that stuff IS dispassionate, but it's smart. If the Sox just immediatly agreed to pay top dollar to ALL of it's free agents from the 04 team, this team would be CRIPPLED by contracts within a year. They do NOT have the unending revenue sources the Yanks do (YES Network, owning the stadium outright, etc.)

Finally, I DO have a chip on my shoulder, which I've defended in other threads. It's really hard to be objective about it, but trust me, the crap I've taken over the years from many Yankee fans (not you, not accusing you of anything) merits that chip.

I don't believe in curses, never did. Can't stand to hear about it now. The Sox didn't win for 86 years because of tangible things like crap owners, crap GMs, crap managers, and players who simply didn't get it done. It never had anything to do with Babe Ruth. I never claimed the Sox had anything to do with the Yanks current WS Championship-less streak, until this year. I was just replying to that pathetic "Curse of Manny" comment.

Anyway, to debate this further would probably p1ss off 99% of the readers, so I'm stopping for now. Again, lesgrant, you know your stuff, and you DO have the right to analyze the current state of the Sox.

Did I say 3 1/2 months..... Geeze I can't wait for April. ;-D



Peace.



jack


;-D I wish baseball were year round.

I found this on the web regarding the moves the Sox are looking to make.

http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/1 ... 17sox.html

I'm sure we'll have plenty more chances to discuss RS/Yanks over the winter. ;-)
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