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Postby JRM4833 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:07 pm

Amazinz wrote:I don't know what is about Wells but I've always liked him. I guess it has to do with him being more like a "real person" than most baseball players. I hope he does well for the Sox.


I kinda like him too, because he's not fake. I guess his comments on wanting to blow up Fenway changed my opinion a bit, but he has always been respectful of the city and the team. I just don't want a 41 year old opening day starter.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:12 pm

Red Sox fans: calm down. They won the World Series. All will be ok.
I'm back. Sorta.

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Postby ajgnydc722 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:57 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:Red Sox fans: calm down. They won the World Series. All will be ok.


Yeah, calm down. You guys sound like a bunch of Yankee fans... :-b
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Postby JRM4833 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:01 pm

Who's upset in here? :-?
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Postby lesgrant » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:04 pm

JRM4833 wrote: If true, however, this isn't your average wheeling and double dealing.


It really is. If I didn't read otherwise, I would have thought this was a Boras deal. Bernie Williams basically did the same thing to the Sox a couple of years back. The technique is as old as agents are: use one team to jack up the offer from the team you really want to sign with.

JRM4833 wrote:I don't understand why you don't think someone could be informed of his shoulder situation. Most in the Red Sox organization know of Pedro's shoulder problem. And they know more than the general public. I don't necessarily believe it, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had more shoulder problems than are being let on. What do you think about the rumor that he has refused an MRI from the Mets as part of his physical?


No one can be informed to the point of attaching a numerical coefficient unless Pedro went under the knife. Surgery is the ONLY way. And Pedro has not had that. I agree with the notion that his shoulder is falling apart, but 90%, as opposed to 95% or 60% is just a lie. Stark attached a number to drive the point home.


JRM4833 wrote:The Red Sox are not hiding behind leaks, etc.. They have been up front about what happened:

"His representatives led us to believe it (the Red Sox final offer to Pedro) was acceptable. It was not." -- Larry Lucchino in phone conversation with CBS4's Bob Lobel.

If you say something, you should stick by your word, player or management. But I have no doubt Theo will make the right moves. The guy has earned my respect.


The Red Sox ARE leaking. How did Stark get this info then? This stuff is not objective dollars and cents and contract term material. It’s stuff that goes to the “character” of Pedro and it makes you feel that much better about saying good-bye.

JRM4833 wrote: I think the Red Sox have already done an unbelieveable job in the Dominican. By no means will the Yankees or Mets be the only teams they know. Not after all the Red Sox and their Dominican players have done. Here's an article if you'd like to read about the second home of the Boston Red Sox.


As good of a job as the Sox have done in the DR, they don’t have a Dominican front office figurehead like the Mets now do. Hiring Dominicans to play on your team (at this point in history) is nowhere near the magnitude of hiring a Dominican to run it. Signing Pedro, Manny, and Ortiz is significant but certainly not unprecedented. Hiring Omar in a big market front office is historic. You are seriously discounting the obstacles minorities still face in baseball and the attention that that blacks and latinos give organizations that knock down those barriers. It’s a very big deal for Dominicans just like it was a big deal for me, an African-American, to see Steinbrenner hire Bob Watson as the first black GM in baseball and Omar hire Willie Randolph as NYC first black manager. This stuff matters to people of color who have been on the outside of things in MLB for so long.

On the smaller picture, if you think Dominicans turned out for Pedro at Fenway, wait until you see their support for him in NYC. There are more Dominicans in Washington Heights alone than permanent residents in Boston proper. This is one of those big market special situations where the player's "value" increases with the size of the stage he plays on. Babe Ruth is just one example of such.
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Postby JRM4833 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:43 pm

lesgrant wrote:It really is. If I didn't read otherwise, I would have thought this was a Boras deal. Bernie Williams basically did the same thing to the Sox a couple of years back. The technique is as old as agents are: use one team to jack up the offer from the team you really want to sign with.


How is it standard? League industry standards are that if you make an offer to a team, and the team accepts it, you are normally bound by it, especially when it involves dealbreaking offers (such as an extra year, etc.). He made such an offer to the Sox (the three year guarenteed deal with all the fancy perks) and when they accepted it, he went back shopping to the Mets. When he made another such offer the the Mets, and the Mets accepted it, he went shopping back to the Sox. He said he was hurt and angry with the Sox after they gave in to his demands. As they had many times before. Don't get me wrong. I'm not angry about it. Just a bit disappointed in Pedro.

lesgrant wrote:No one can be informed to the point of attaching a numerical coefficient unless Pedro went under the knife. Surgery is the ONLY way. And Pedro has not had that. I agree with the notion that his shoulder is falling apart, but 90%, as opposed to 95% or 60% is just a lie. Stark attached a number to drive the point home.


Pedro has had MRIs. This is how doctors determine tears and similar injuries. Not by surgery. I don't know where you got that idea. The 90% number might be exagerated to some extent, but I don't think ESPN is making it up out of thin air. And I don't think they'd simply take the Sox's word for it. It's not a lie. It could be wrong information. But it's certainly not a lie. Why you think ESPN and Jayson Stark would make up a number is beyond me. Their reputation is on the line.

lesgrant wrote:The Red Sox ARE leaking. How did Stark get this info then? This stuff is not objective dollars and cents and contract term material. It’s stuff that goes to the “character” of Pedro and it makes you feel that much better about saying good-bye.


We don't know how Stark got his information. I won't make assumptions though until I get a reasonable amount of facts. Your assumptions about the leak assume that it is false. We don't know that yet. But I understand that is your opinion.

lesgrant wrote:As good of a job as the Sox have done in the DR, they don’t have a Dominican front office figurehead like the Mets now do. Hiring Dominicans to play on your team (at this point in history) is nowhere near the magnitude of hiring a Dominican to run it. Signing Pedro, Manny, and Ortiz is significant but certainly not unprecedented. Hiring Omar in a big market front office is historic. You are seriously discounting the obstacles minorities still face in baseball and the attention that that blacks and latinos give organizations that knock down those barriers. It’s a very big deal for Dominicans just like it was a big deal for me, an African-American, to see Steinbrenner hire Bob Watson as the first black GM in baseball and Omar hire Willie Randolph as NYC first black manager. This stuff matters to people of color who have been on the outside of things in MLB for so long.

On the smaller picture, if you think Dominicans turned out for Pedro at Fenway, wait until you see their support for him in NYC. There are more Dominicans in Washington Heights alone than permanent residents in Boston proper. This is one of those big market special situations where the player's "value" increases with the size of the stage he plays on. Babe Ruth is just one example of such.


Well I posted you a link. You really don't know much about the Sox in the Dominican. They just opened up the first real baseball camp there. They gave a ton of money to the flood victims. They have more known Dominicans on their team than any other. You should have seen Fenway this year. Dominicans everywhere waving flags. It was a nice sight. Why you think simply having a Dominican GM is going to get all the Dominican players I don't really understand. The Dominican fans know names like Pedro, Manny, Ortiz. They don't know the name Minaya all too well.

I think you are discounting the value of players from the Dominican. These are the role models for young baseball players there. Not the GMs and other bigshots. We are bombarded with information about the Red Sox in the Dominican here. I don't think you get quite how popular the Sox are there.

But personally, I don't like someone just because I have the same race or religion as them. I happen to be Jewish but wouldn't like a team because they signed a Jewish GM. But you can be sure I know most of the Jewish players in the league.

We'll see about Pedro's support. You can downplay the population of Boston all you like, but you haven't seen it first hand. And I've posted a link to show the unbelievable enthusiasm for the Sox in the Dominican. From a NY paper I might add.
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Postby acsguitar » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:53 pm

Hey JRM...did I mention that I hate the Red Sox! Now you have an old old staff...go yankees!!

P.S. Im still working on that trade
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Postby Amazinz » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:04 pm

JRM4833 wrote:Pedro has had MRIs. This is how doctors determine tears and similar injuries. Not by surgery. I don't know where you got that idea. The 90% number might be exagerated to some extent, but I don't think ESPN is making it up out of thin air. And I don't think they'd simply take the Sox's word for it. It's not a lie. It could be wrong information. But it's certainly not a lie. Why you think ESPN and Jayson Stark would make up a number is beyond me. Their reputation is on the line.

Well, Jayson Stark doesn't care about his reputation obviously. He writes stupid stuff all the time. He is an editorialist not a reporter. He can say what he wants but the 90% figure isn't based on any information the Sox gave him because the Sox don't have information that specific. What even makes him look less credible is the doctors who have said his claim is ridiculous. A regular person could barely lift their arm with a 90% tear to the labrum, let alone go out an pitch a baseball. I am not a proffesional writer but I am a blogger and if a "source" had given me that information I wouldn't have certainly verified it with an expert. I don't even get paid to write but I certainly would not want to come across as a moron. I wonder why ESPN or Stark didn't do the same?

Secondly, MRIs cannot detect torn labrums. It can show tissue damage that might lead a doctor to believe there is a tear but exploratory surgery is the only way to know for sure. And this is how I know the Sox don't fully know. They wanted Pedro to undergo exploratory surgery but he refused.

With all of the information Boston does have they were still willing to offer Pedro a three-year contract. If they somehow knew that Pedro's shoulder bone (humerus) was cushioned inside the socket by only 10% of his labrum would they have offered him a three-year contract? I doubt it.
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Postby JRM4833 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:18 pm

acsguitar wrote:Hey JRM...did I mention that I hate the Red Sox! Now you have an old old staff...go yankees!!

P.S. Im still working on that trade


Did I mention I love the Sox and they're going to win it all again? Oh and that I have the Yanks' nasty closer on my team? :-b

We'll see what the Sox do though.
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Postby El Gaupo » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:53 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:
Transmogrifier wrote:Red Sox fans: calm down. They won the World Series. All will be ok.


Yeah, calm down. You guys sound like a bunch of Yankee fans... :-b



As World Champs..we will make the big moves before the final trading deadline...Sincerely Red Yankee Sox fan
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