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Better GM?

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Who is the better GM?

Billy Beane
12
35%
John Schuerholz
22
65%
 
Total votes : 34

Postby Lofunzo » Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:59 am

Pacman wrote:Lofunzo.... that's a new Elisha picture you have there on the left (your Avatar, I believe it's called.) I'm a lover of all things Cuthbert, and I dont believe I've seen that one, unless it just looks different because it's cropped. Care to share a bigger pic? I don't think the guys on this board would mind. ;-D


Thanks, bro.


This is the 1st 1 that I used, then I switched, and then I recently switched back. I didn't get it from a bigger picture. This is the size that I got from the web.

She is a beauty. ;-D

I just did a Google search and came up with these for your viewing pleasure:

http://devoted.to/elisha
http://www.elisha-cuthbert.com/
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Postby Rico The Retard » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:19 am

Mr. Theo Epstein
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Postby reiser » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:19 am

FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:Beane and Schuerholz have more in common than most people think.


i completely agree with that. Atlanta is completely running a value picthing staff these days, and turning entire careers around. (Wright, Hampton?!).

I didn't even vote they are so equal in my book.

Now to all the trash talkers about Atlanta-while I agree they have been a collosal flop in recent years, that Twins championship was DAMN STOLEN AND IF THE STUPID UMPIRES IN THAT SERIES HAD ANY SENSE WE WOULD HAVE WON ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!

ahem. as to the East....hey, it's not our fault the mets and the phillies blow every year. which also makes the Cashman argument IMO-a lot of teams throw tons of money on the field every year, but few have won as consistently as the Yankees.

that said, Beane has changed the game, for good or for ill, in that losing teams can no longer hide behind small-market budgets as an excuse, something the A's and the Twins have both demonstrated.

I still favor revenue sharing though, as I believe increased competitiveness only improves the game. see: Green Bay Packers v. Milwakee Brewers
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Postby thomasps3 » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:30 pm

No way Beane gets it. Schuerholz is quite stellar. 13 straight division crowns, and not one book gets written about him. Maybe because he just gets it and unbeknownst to us, cvan evaluate talent and make up on a level with Ryan in Minnesota. No doubt in this one. Beane does get credit though for being an innovator, however, if a book was never written about him, would he be as highly regarded?
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Postby Transmogrifier » Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:18 am

Transmogrifier wrote:
FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:He gets the label of a great "Moneyball" GM or whatever you want to call it, but the fact of the matter is that he had the second highest payroll in MLB. That's not economizing anywhere. He didn't build a team around OBP.


Um, what else am I supposed to infer from the above? You said he's not a Moneyball GM but he didn't economize and didn't build it around OBP. In fact he did both. You can have a high payroll and still economize. While you have to pay Manny 20 million a year, you can get a cheap secondbaseman that works the count and hits bombs. You can get a cheap 3b that wins the batting title. You can get a jackrabbit that can sit in the dugout all night and then steals the biggest base of his life. You can get a WW pitcher (or was it Rule 5?) that carries your team when Lowe and Wakefield suck. You really have to look beyond the payroll.

And you dodge my other point. How did Theo not build a team around OBP?


Just a little bump here since FatGuy never responded.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:29 am

It's unfair to compare gms, who have really so much difference in time as gm, and funds available to them. John has been a gm much longer, with much more salary allotted to him (Atlanta). Both are top 5 gms. John has the better resume (1 ring + plus titles), but Beane probably gets more bang for the buck (salary/wins).

TRANS nice post on Bostons crushing oba, and key role players who figured big.

My good friend WRVERES probably wears a Beane t-shirt to bed? :-D

Beane gets so much abuse for no rings, but i don't see gms losing Giambis/Tejadas with 40-50 mil payrolls winning either.

The 14 straight is nice, but nothing beats NY 4 rings (scoreboard).
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Postby perlick29 » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:23 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:
FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:
Pacman wrote:
FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:Hendry, Jocketty, Shapiro, DePodesta and maybe even Stoneman are all better than Theo.



Spoken like a true Yankee fan. :-t


A) I'm not a Yankees fan.

B) Epstein is overrated as hell and not half as good as everyone thinks he is. He gets the label of a great "Moneyball" GM or whatever you want to call it, but the fact of the matter is that he had the second highest payroll in MLB. That's not economizing anywhere. He didn't build a team around OBP. He built a team around great hitters, a great 1/2 in the rotation, and a very dependable pen led by a top flight shutdown closer. Whoopty-freaking-do.


1) Moneyball isn't about OBP. It's about finding players that are undervalued--which used to be OBP, and a lot of people now say it's defensive guys--and taking advantage of them.

2) Do you know what you are talking about? Who lead the league in OBP this year? How about OPS? Why did Theo sign random people like Bellhorn and bat him in the two-hole with all those Ks?

If you don't see the value in the players Theo signed--and I'm not talking about Schilling and Foulke here--you are nuts. Look at the list he got pretty cheap: David Ortiz, Billy Mueller, Bellhorn, Pokey Reese, Dave Roberts, Scott Williamson, Bronson Arroyo, etc. Seriously, that's some good work.


Plus the Mantei signing is going a long way towards that players on the cheap thing.
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Postby perlick29 » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:42 pm

I voted for Beane simply because he does have people on the farm that will take over when the big 3 leave. Someone said Beane would be exposed, but I believe they are wrong. Harden, Blanton, Duke, and company will be great.


As to Theo Epstein, there was a great post here. Let me find it:

Wozzyck wrote:
Epstein is overrated as hell and not half as good as everyone thinks he is. He gets the label of a great "Moneyball" GM or whatever you want to call it, but the fact of the matter is that he had the second highest payroll in MLB. That's not economizing anywhere.


Admittedly, Theo doesn't yet have a large body of work, but he's certainly been one of the best GMs over the past few years (WS or no WS). If we're being honest, perhaps it should be noted that Theo inherited the second largest payroll in MLB; he certainly hasn't spent wildly since he's taken over.

Examining the Red Sox lineup, he's responsible for:
Mueller (2.5 M)
Bellhorn (0.5 M providing the best OPS at 2B in the AL)
Ortiz (5 M and signed to a long-term contract well-below market value)
Millar (about 3 M)
That's about as much bang for your free-agent buck as you can find.

On the pitching staff:
Schilling (12 M for an undisputed ace)
Arroyo (0.3 M and one of the best waiver claims of the last few years)
Foulke (3.5 M though his contract averages ~7 M)
Kim (we can't all be perfect ;-) )

And the gutsy Nomar trade didn't work out too badly either.


He built a team around great hitters, a great 1/2 in the rotation, and a very dependable pen led by a top flight shutdown closer. Whoopty-freaking-do.


Isn't this what good GMs are supposed to do?


Beautifully spoken. I like Theo a lot, and when I went on record as saying the Sox would still win, even when they were 10 down people called me crazy. Theo is a very good GM who has been with the sox all 2 years and is already amking the team better. Granted he has a high payroll but he's been trying to take it down. I mentioned in the previous post about Mantei, today we find about Wells which is only for 4 mil a year and incentive laden. Those are good signings, Theo is proving he'll be a force as a GM for years.
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Postby George_Foreman » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:15 pm

For a similar argument, were the Bills better than the Cowboys of the same period?? The Giants??


Yes, over those four years, they were. In the given year that they lost to the cowboys, they cowboys were obviously better. in the year that they lost to giants, the giants were obviously better. but what about the 3 years that they lost ot someone besides the giants? besides the cowboys? i'd say the bills were probably the better team each of those three years.

same thing applied to the braves. i'll agree strait out that the yanks were the better team over the past 7 or 8 years, but what about the 6 preceeding? did the yanks even win their division very often those years? the braves certainly wern't the "dominant" MLB team over for the past 14 years, but over that time span, no one has done better overall, even the yanks IMO. its very easy to just look at recent history when assessing this and forget how roundly the yanks were being stomped by the oriols and the blue jays in the early 90s, let alone who many ups and downs all of the other teams in MLB have had.

honestly, the giants are one of the few other teams that has consistantly been around the division-winning level over that time period. (actually, i should say "barry bonds's team" rather than the giants, since before he left pittsburg, they were doing well, too.)
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Postby El Gaupo » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:48 pm

perlick29 wrote:I voted for Beane simply because he does have people on the farm that will take over when the big 3 leave. Someone said Beane would be exposed, but I believe they are wrong. Harden, Blanton, Duke, and company will be great.


As to Theo Epstein, there was a great post here. Let me find it:

Wozzyck wrote:
Epstein is overrated as hell and not half as good as everyone thinks he is. He gets the label of a great "Moneyball" GM or whatever you want to call it, but the fact of the matter is that he had the second highest payroll in MLB. That's not economizing anywhere.


Admittedly, Theo doesn't yet have a large body of work, but he's certainly been one of the best GMs over the past few years (WS or no WS). If we're being honest, perhaps it should be noted that Theo inherited the second largest payroll in MLB; he certainly hasn't spent wildly since he's taken over.

Examining the Red Sox lineup, he's responsible for:
Mueller (2.5 M)
Bellhorn (0.5 M providing the best OPS at 2B in the AL)
Ortiz (5 M and signed to a long-term contract well-below market value)
Millar (about 3 M)
That's about as much bang for your free-agent buck as you can find.

On the pitching staff:
Schilling (12 M for an undisputed ace)
Arroyo (0.3 M and one of the best waiver claims of the last few years)
Foulke (3.5 M though his contract averages ~7 M)
Kim (we can't all be perfect ;-) )

And the gutsy Nomar trade didn't work out too badly either.


He built a team around great hitters, a great 1/2 in the rotation, and a very dependable pen led by a top flight shutdown closer. Whoopty-freaking-do.


Isn't this what good GMs are supposed to do?


Beautifully spoken. I like Theo a lot, and when I went on record as saying the Sox would still win, even when they were 10 down people called me crazy. Theo is a very good GM who has been with the sox all 2 years and is already amking the team better. Granted he has a high payroll but he's been trying to take it down. I mentioned in the previous post about Mantei, today we find about Wells which is only for 4 mil a year and incentive laden. Those are good signings, Theo is proving he'll be a force as a GM for years.



Do not forget that their minor league system is vastly improving each year. Money can not buy everything, sometimes you need prospects at the trading deadline to get deals done.
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