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Bonds in the HOF??

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Postby Bukoski77 » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:17 am

Way to go WRVERES.

sorry guys, no "proof" or concrete "facts" on this one........................ , but if you have already declared Bonds guilty of steroid abuse than you are really naive to think that he is the first.

This has been going on for well over 10 years probably more than 20. To blame the players only is short sighted as well. Shouldnt baseball have tested and banned steroids years ago like the bulk of other proffesional sports have? The owners and baseball excetutives are almost as guilty as the players that have used steroids for ignoreing it for so long. Nothing like the long ball to boost rateing heh guys?

I think Bonds took roids but I dont have proof. I also think that countless others before Bonds took roids and that some of them are probably in the Hall.

Heck, I think McGwire took roids with his Andro.

Baseball's steroids ban
Major League Baseball began steroid testing in 2003 under terms of an agreement with the Major League Baseball Players Association. Critics -- including Commissioner Bud Selig -- say the program is too weak to deter drug cheats, but the players' association has balked at allowing the owners to toughen it unilaterally. Among the program's provisions:

Drugs tested for: Steroids only.

When tests occur: In season only.

Players tested: All players were tested in 2003 for the first time as a survey. Mandatory random testing began in 2004.

Test frequency: A player can be tested only once per season, with one follow-up one week later.

Penalties for violations: Starting in 2004, treatment program (first offense), suspensions ranging from 15 days to one year (subsequent offenses).


What in there makes anyone think his HOF status is even an issue in baseball?

Do I think he should be in the Hall? Yes, I do. If the governing body of baseball cared about the effects of steroids effecting the game then over a decade was the time to make steps to stop it from happening as severely as it has risen to in recent years.[/b]
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Postby DominicanLou » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:55 am

SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:Whether you like it or not, He did nothing against the rules, written or unwritten. Sure you could call it cheating -- I tend to think of it that way, but there was nothing in the rule book when he was putting up those numbers that kept him from doing what he did. That's just how I see it.


Um...I believe that there are rules against using steroids, they are called Laws of the United States. No, they were not specifically banned by baseball, but they are against the law to use, and they do improve one's ability to perform as an athlete.

If taking steroids was as trivial and harmless as some people want to make it seem, then why didn't bonds just shoot up in front of everyone and answer all the questions truthfully when he was asked whether he took steroids?
Because he knew what he was doing was wrong, he knew it was cheating, and he should be punished for it.

Now, I don't know if banning him from the Hall is an approriate decision, but I would not fight against it. Much like the Ron Artest incident, an example has to be made of Bonds to ensure that nothing like this happens again without an athlete knowing that there will be serious consequences.
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Postby Bukoski77 » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:31 am

DominicanLou wrote:
SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:Whether you like it or not, He did nothing against the rules, written or unwritten. Sure you could call it cheating -- I tend to think of it that way, but there was nothing in the rule book when he was putting up those numbers that kept him from doing what he did. That's just how I see it.


Um...I believe that there are rules against using steroids, they are called Laws of the United States. No, they were not specifically banned by baseball, but they are against the law to use, and they do improve one's ability to perform as an athlete.

If taking steroids was as trivial and harmless as some people want to make it seem, then why didn't bonds just shoot up in front of everyone and answer all the questions truthfully when he was asked whether he took steroids?
Because he knew what he was doing was wrong, he knew it was cheating, and he should be punished for it.

Now, I don't know if banning him from the Hall is an approriate decision, but I would not fight against it. Much like the Ron Artest incident, an example has to be made of Bonds to ensure that nothing like this happens again without an athlete knowing that there will be serious consequences.


Baseball is an international sport. Many of our players come from South America. To be technical you can go to Mexico, shoot up some roids, come back over, and have done nothing illegal.

An extreme example I realize but true none the less.


BTW, steroids are not nearly as harmfull as this forum makes them seem. Steroid abuse is harmfull but proper (think outside your box) steroid use can be done in a non harmfull way.

Arnold Schwartzenneger anyone? He was the first celebrity aquainted with steroids. He is alive, still ticking, and in much better health than over 90% of men his age. The truth is no long term effects of steroid use on the body have been done bye the medical community yet.

Remember how Marijuana was portrayed years ago in the news papers and propaganda films like Reefer Madness years ago? Well our society today exists in an almost total state of ignorance regarding steroids.

Steroids can be cycled, and then their use discontinued. The gains you get from them can be kept as well with out further steroid use as long as you continue to work as hard as you did while useing them. Bodybuilders and baseball players cycle them to get past a wall. A wall being when they have gotten as far as their genetics will allow them to. The fact is 99% of the population never reaches their genetic limits.

Am I the only one that reads Mens Health?

I'm not advocateing steroids bye any means and no I dont take them. I'm just stateing that a few teenagers exemplifying Darwism and manageing to kill themselves on steroid abuse does not make them out to be as bad as public opinion percieves.

50 years from now or so half of the steroids that are illegal today will probably be common knowledge fitness enhancers and not have such a taboo attatched to them.
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Postby trevisc » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:25 am

I didn't read through all the posts but my 2 cents is he should be able to go into the Hall. Back in the days players cheated with spit balls and sand paper and corked bats all the time. Is there really much difference in that and using Steroids? How many believe that Canseco wasn't on steroids all through the late 80s and 90s. What about Mcgwire? The rules have changed since 2003 and from here on out any players caught should be punished accordingly but I don't think admitting to using a steroid cream in 2003 should constitute banning from the Hall.
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Postby Savoy Special » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:28 pm

I agree Bonds should be in the Hall. I am not for Pete Rose in the HOF only because he was such a jerk to me when I met him when I was about 8 years old. BTW, Tom Seaver ran away from me one time when I simply asked for his autograph--I was 7 years old.
Anyways, I started this post simply because I wanted to see if anyone saw a correlation b/w Rose's off the field actions and Bonds' off the field actions and how that would relate to their HOF status.
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Postby Rkiivs » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:05 pm

Savoy Special wrote:
Rkiivs wrote:I'm not all for putting BB in the Hall if all comes true with his use, believe me. But neither can I strike out all his stats when clearly he hasn't been juicing his whole career. Instead, I'd wipe out his stats for whatever seasons he admits to using and use his remaining stats to decide Hall worthiness. If he is currently tested and is positive then he should face a one season ban. Does this sound reasonable?



So how do you determine this if he only admits he used steroids for one year--let's just say it's the year he hit 73?

What if he never admits using them altogether and lies about it like he has in the past?


You're right that it's not a perfect system, but it was a suggestion and a starting place for going forward. My main point being to install a policy that covers everyone on every team and not just aim it in a circumstance that covers BB only.

But in your example above, I honestly don't think it's possible to find a way to make the current steroid policy retroactive except from the point it was instituted. It would just be too difficult to start pointing a finger at every past player. As for determining guilt, well that is for the powers to be to determine in an investigation by whatever means they can. I don't know what the best way is to handle that.

But I totally agree where you're coming from concerning character. In a perfect world all our heros would be dubious and all the HOF plaques would shine brightly. But then again, guys like Ty Cobb probably wouldn't have made it in based on character.
Last edited by Rkiivs on Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bonds in the HOF??

Postby acsguitar » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:07 pm

Savoy Special wrote:I heard an argument which compared what Pete Rose did vs. what Barry Bonds did. The radio talk show then asked if Bonds should be kept out of the Hall of Fame.
My basic question: Rose was an HOF on the field but tarnished the game by his off the field actions. Bonds is definitely an HOF, but should his off the field actions keep him out too??


These aren't "OFF FIELD" actions these are on field actions...he used steroids while he was on the field...not literally shooting them..but they effected onfield play...therefore he should be out of the hall and considered a cheater
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Postby sisyphus » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:22 pm

I posted this response in another thread, but it seems appropriate here as well.... Why would we exclude Bonds if McGwire is OK. McGwire knew exactly what he was taking.

Look, I think some people need to relax a little and get down off of their high horses. I don't like Bonds either. The guy is clearly out for himself and chose to use steroids. However, it is also pretty clear that a large percentage of major leaguers, and minor leaguers as well, used, and may still be using, steroids. Did it give them an advantage over those who didn't ? Sure. But lets face facts. If anyone is to blame for this situation it is major league baseball. The powers that be, owners and the players union, chose to ignore an ongoing problem. Now that it is in the open and has become a major embarrassment we are all appalled and want Bonds, Giambi...etc to pay the price? Come on! Why do we expect the players to have refrained from using something that was readily available and clearly condoned by those in power? By the way, I'm not seeing a whole lot of outrage at our hero Mark "Andro" McGwire. No one seems to feel that he is a big cheater. Why don't we put an asterisk next to his name? In addition, why are people outraged that Bonds didn't and hasn't admitted to using steriods? Why would he do that? Giambi didn't admit it either until someone leaked his tesitmony. It is a sad situation for baseball, but unfortunately is a part of our win at all costs culture. Instead of hammering Bonds and other players maybe we should take a look at how baseball and other sports got in this situation, instead of being pollyanish and moral about certain athlete's choices.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:26 pm

sisyphus wrote:I posted this response in another thread, but it seems appropriate here as well.... Why would we exclude Bonds if McGwire is OK. McGwire knew exactly what he was taking.

Look, I think some people need to relax a little and get down off of their high horses. I don't like Bonds either. The guy is clearly out for himself and chose to use steroids. However, it is also pretty clear that a large percentage of major leaguers, and minor leaguers as well, used, and may still be using, steroids. Did it give them an advantage over those who didn't ? Sure. But lets face facts. If anyone is to blame for this situation it is major league baseball. The powers that be, owners and the players union, chose to ignore an ongoing problem. Now that it is in the open and has become a major embarrassment we are all appalled and want Bonds, Giambi...etc to pay the price? Come on! Why do we expect the players to have refrained from using something that was readily available and clearly condoned by those in power? By the way, I'm not seeing a whole lot of outrage at our hero Mark "Andro" McGwire. No one seems to feel that he is a big cheater. Why don't we put an asterisk next to his name? In addition, why are people outraged that Bonds didn't and hasn't admitted to using steriods? Why would he do that? Giambi didn't admit it either until someone leaked his tesitmony. It is a sad situation for baseball, but unfortunately is a part of our win at all costs culture. Instead of hammering Bonds and other players maybe we should take a look at how baseball and other sports got in this situation, instead of being pollyanish and moral about certain athlete's choices.


Andro wasn't banned therefore McGwire didn't cheat. Some people here have said that steroids were banned since 1990, so therefore anybody who used steroids since then would be a cheater. That's the difference IMO.

sisyphus wrote:Why do we expect the players to have refrained from using something that was readily available and clearly condoned by those in power?


Being readily available means nothing to me. And it wasn't condoned, it was punishable.
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Postby acsguitar » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:29 pm

LBJackal wrote:
sisyphus wrote:I posted this response in another thread, but it seems appropriate here as well.... Why would we exclude Bonds if McGwire is OK. McGwire knew exactly what he was taking.

Look, I think some people need to relax a little and get down off of their high horses. I don't like Bonds either. The guy is clearly out for himself and chose to use steroids. However, it is also pretty clear that a large percentage of major leaguers, and minor leaguers as well, used, and may still be using, steroids. Did it give them an advantage over those who didn't ? Sure. But lets face facts. If anyone is to blame for this situation it is major league baseball. The powers that be, owners and the players union, chose to ignore an ongoing problem. Now that it is in the open and has become a major embarrassment we are all appalled and want Bonds, Giambi...etc to pay the price? Come on! Why do we expect the players to have refrained from using something that was readily available and clearly condoned by those in power? By the way, I'm not seeing a whole lot of outrage at our hero Mark "Andro" McGwire. No one seems to feel that he is a big cheater. Why don't we put an asterisk next to his name? In addition, why are people outraged that Bonds didn't and hasn't admitted to using steriods? Why would he do that? Giambi didn't admit it either until someone leaked his tesitmony. It is a sad situation for baseball, but unfortunately is a part of our win at all costs culture. Instead of hammering Bonds and other players maybe we should take a look at how baseball and other sports got in this situation, instead of being pollyanish and moral about certain athlete's choices.


Andro wasn't banned therefore McGwire didn't cheat. Some people here have said that steroids were banned since 1990, so therefore anybody who used steroids since then would be a cheater. That's the difference IMO.

sisyphus wrote:Why do we expect the players to have refrained from using something that was readily available and clearly condoned by those in power?


Being readily available means nothing to me. And it wasn't condoned, it was punishable.


Agreed! Steroids are illgeal andro was not neither was creatine.
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