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Bonds in the HOF??

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Postby Amazinz » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:02 pm

I think that if Barry Bonds never touched steroids he would have made it into the HoF anyway. So I wouldn't keep him out just because he took steroids. But I also think Pete Rose should be in the HoF.
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Postby George_Foreman » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:07 pm

Bonds should be in the hall because he was an amazing baseball player. he didn't hurt the game; his generation of ballplayer did. and we've heard it time and time again, you have to judge ballplayers based on what the guys around them were doing. this is a hitter's era, so there will inevitably some 1bs who don't get in to the hall even though they put up better numbers than guys from the 1970s. similarly, bonds lived in a era of steriod use. and he was head (of whatever size) and shoulders above the rest.

bonds gets in.
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Postby wrveres » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:30 pm

Are we so naive as to think that players like Sheffield and Caminiti are the first MLB Players to use steriods? Especially since they have been used in sports since the 50's? pleeaase ...
The use of various physical and chemical aids in performance enhancement is not a novel problem but has been a feature of athletic competition since the beginning of recorded history. Ancient Greeks ate sesame seeds, bufotenin was used by the legendary berserkers in Norwegian mythology, and the Andean Indians and the Australian aborigines chewed, respectively, coca leaves and the pituri plant for stimulating and antifatiguing effects. Anabolic steroids have been used by athletes to enhance appearance and performance for many years. The first ergogenic use of anabolic-androgenic steroids was reported to have occurred in the 1950s among weightlifters and bodybuilders . Since that time their use has permeated a myriad of sports. Payne in 1979 suggested that the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids was a significant problem at the 1964 Olympic Games. Ljungqvist in 1975 reported that one-third of a sample of elite track and field athletes in Sweden; surveyed admitted to systematic anabolic-androgenic steroid use by 1972. Silvester in 1973 reported that 68% of a sample interviewed at the 1972 Olympic Games from 7 countries, and who were competing in such diverse activities as throwing, jumping, vaulting, sprinting, and running up to 5000m, admitted having used anabolic-androgenic steroids. Although it was suggested as early as 1973 and reiterated later, it is now evident that the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids is not limited to elite amateur and professional athletes. It has trickled down from the professional and college levels to the high schools and junior high schools (Buckley et al. 1988)
The estimated prevalence of nonmedical anabolic-androgenic steroid use and the implications for society and public health have also prompted several scientific meetings, including a technical review at the National Institute on Drug Abuse in 1989, and both federal and state investigations and efforts to reclassify anabolic-androgenic steroids as controlled substances despite nonconcurrence from the American Medical Association.
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Postby wrveres » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:52 pm

Another solid read I came across ...
slightly dated, but still a good read ...


Everybody's On Steroids!
I was willing to leave this whole issue alone, but with every passing hour, more and more stupidity gets piled on the issue. First there was speculation that Barry Bonds' 73 home runs in 2001 were a product of steroids, because, well, he'd never more than 49 in a season before. The speculation continued, as sportswriters began to look back at some of the more recent numbers put up by major league baseball's superstars. Luis Gonzalez hit 57 home runs in 2001, when he'd never hit more than 31 previously. At the time, it was attributed to Luis' development of an open stance that helped his hitting, and the favorable conditions at Bank One Ballpark. But now it's because of steroids.

Sunday, Orioles Hall of Famer Jim Palmer added more verbal diarrhea to the debate, when he questioned how Brady Anderson hit 50 home runs in 1996 when his previous best was 21. Palmer also claimed that Anderson "hit 31 more on the road that year, so it's not like he took advantage of Camden Yards." Now, let's ignore for a moment the fact that in 1996, Camden Yards was a pitcher's park (and has been since). And let's ignore for a moment the fact that Brady Anderson admitted trying to hit a home run with every swing. And let's also ignore the fact that the Orioles replaced the light-hitting trio of Manny Alexander, Jeff Manto, and Kevin Bass with Roberto Alomar, B.J. Surhoff, and Bobby Bonilla, which just might have provided a more comfortable lineup for Brady to hit in. Ignore all that, and answer this question:

Why is it that every statistical anomaly can now be explained simply by saying, "Well, he was probably on steroids?" And here's an even better question: why isn't anyone looking back further into history?

Roger Maris hit 61 home runs in 1961. Sixty-one! He shattered the record that Babe Ruth had held for thirty-four years! But here's an interesting statistic: Maris had never hit more than 39 homers in a season before 1961, and never hit more than 33 afterwards. How is that possible?

He was probably on steroids.

Didn't Roger Maris suffer major hair loss during that season? We'd always just attributed it to the stress of chasing the immortal Babe Ruth. But maybe it wasn't that at all. Maybe it was all the steroids he was taking.

Hall of Fame outfielder Hack Wilson hit 56 home runs in 1930. Prior to that season, the most he'd hit was 39. After that season? 23. What about George Foster, the only man to hit 50 home runs in a season during the 1970's? He hit 23 and 29 the two seasons before he hit 50. After that season, he tapered off from 50 to 40 to 30, and never hit more than 28 after that. Now George took a while to come down from the plateau, but how can all of this be explained?

They were probably on steroids.

No one is really going to accuse Maris and Wilson and Foster of using steroids. Because those guys, and their peers, come from an age where men were men and baseball was innocent. There is this aura around old-time baseball, as though the game and its players were untainted back then. Wilfredo Cordero allegedly hits his wife with a phone, and he's a bad, bad man. Ty Cobb, who climbed into the stands one day and physically assaulted a fan in a wheelchair, and who later admitted to killing a man? What a hitter!

It's almost seen as an insult when a player in this era approaches a cherished record or milestone, unless that player is a consummate professional like Cal Ripken, Jr., who plays the game like an old-timer. So now every two bit reporter and old-time ballplayer is coming out of the woodwork to point the finger at today's athletes without really having any evidence. Well, that's not true. They have plenty of hearsay and conjecture... and those are kinds of evidence.

Reggie Jackson came out recently and declared that today's players were absolutely and unequivocally using steroids, because, well, Hank Aaron never hit more than 50 home runs in a season, and now a couple of guys are doing it, and they can't possibly be better than Hank Aaron, so they must be cheating. Uh huh. Right, Reggie. It must be steroids, because there's no way today's athletes could be bigger and better and stronger and faster than players of old. Because nothing changed in the 25 years or so since Aaron hit his last home run in the way of nutrition, off-season training, advanced scouting, and videotape analysis that might give today's players the edge. Right, Reggie?

What puzzles me is that for the last ten or fifteen years, we've seen a whole host of reasons why home run totals have jumped, but no one wants to talk about them now. Four new teams have been added to the majors since 1992, which means that at any one time, there are about 40 pitchers on major league rosters that wouldn't have been there prior to expansion. With some minor exceptions, namely Comerica Park in Detroit and Safeco Field in Seattle, new ballparks have smaller dimensions and less foul territory. The existing ones have had fences moved in (Anaheim, Kansas City). And there's also that little place known as Coors Field, where eight-year-olds hit moonballs during the annual father-son game. As an added bonus, if you believe in conspiracy theories, the powers that be have also made the baseballs harder so that balls will fly out of the park, thus increasing attendance for a sport that is still feeling the sting from the 1994 players' strike.

But none of this is a good story, because it's not an analysis of game trends but steroids, regardless of how irresponsible and unfair that is, that sell papers and grab ratings. In a recent article in the Boston Herald, columnist Gerry Callahan referred to Barry Bonds as "Bonds *" throughout the article, and proposed attaching an asterisk to every record Bonds achieved because of the possibility that he used steroids. Apparently it doesn't matter that the Maris asterisk was removed long ago or that Bonds' alleged steroid use hasn't been proven yet. Some still see the need for a new asterisk.

I've got some asterisks of my own to hand out.

First up, Babe Ruth. He only has two career records left -- highest slugging percentage (.690) and highest career OPS (1.164) -- but I think we should put an asterisk next to all of the Babe's numbers. After all, he never once in his career faced any of the top black pitchers of his time. Sure, that's not his fault, baseball was segregated, but the Babe never did anything to change that, did he?

Next up, Ted Williams. Put a big Shift+8 next to his home run numbers. After all, the Red Sox moved in the fences to help the Splendid Splinter hit more home runs. It probably helped his average and on-base percentage, too, so let's throw some more asterisks around.

How about Bob Gibson? That 1.12 ERA in 1968? A year after he put up that number, Major League Baseball lowered the mound from fifteen inches to ten inches. Lo and behold, Gibson's ERA climbed more than a full point to 2.18, then to 3.12 the next year. Certainly sounds like the mound was more responsible for that miniscule number than Gibson was. I think we need another asterisk.

And while we're here, let's give a few to Rickey Henderson, just because Rickey is Rickey.

The fact is, that aside from someone coming out and admitting that they use steroids (like Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco, albeit after the fact), or the drug test policy being changed so that offenders are named publicly, we're not going to know who is on steroids and who isn't regardless of what we might think and what circumstantial evidence we might have. So isn't it just better to say, "Yeah, some of these guys might be on the sauce," and leave it at that? Do you really think that the 239th time Gary Sheffield is asked if he uses steroids, he's suddenly going to have a change of heart and say, "Yeah, you know what, I did"? But it really doesn't matter how he answers, does it? The fact that he's accused, in our minds, means that he's guilty. Denying it just makes him a liar, and admitting it just proves our point. Because we're already preconditioned to believe athletes are guilty until proven innocent.

You can ask Michael Irvin about that.
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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:58 pm

Whether you like it or not, He did nothing against the rules, written or unwritten. Sure you could call it cheating -- I tend to think of it that way, but there was nothing in the rule book when he was putting up those numbers that kept him from doing what he did. That's just how I see it.
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Postby FatGuyWithAMullet » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:02 pm

SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:Whether you like it or not, He did nothing against the rules, written or unwritten. Sure you could call it cheating -- I tend to think of it that way, but there was nothing in the rule book when he was putting up those numbers that kept him from doing what he did. That's just how I see it.


If he just took HGHs then he didn't do anything against the rules, but if abused steroids at any time after 1990 then he did break the rules. I posted the written statement that Bud Selig issued in 1997 on the subject on drug abuse in that gargantuan Giambi thread.
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Postby Savoy Special » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:03 am

Rkiivs wrote:I'm not all for putting BB in the Hall if all comes true with his use, believe me. But neither can I strike out all his stats when clearly he hasn't been juicing his whole career. Instead, I'd wipe out his stats for whatever seasons he admits to using and use his remaining stats to decide Hall worthiness. If he is currently tested and is positive then he should face a one season ban. Does this sound reasonable?



So how do you determine this if he only admits he used steroids for one year--let's just say it's the year he hit 73?

What if he never admits using them altogether and lies about it like he has in the past?
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Postby Savoy Special » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:06 am

Are Joe Jackson and Pete Rose the only two that have been banned from the Hall that deserve to be there?

Aren't there already a bunch of criminals/cheaters in the HOF? Ty Cobb? Orlando Cepeda? So how strict does the HOF stand to its "integrity" base?

Does anybody think that Mark McGwire does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame based on his Andro use?
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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:07 am

FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:I posted the written statement that Bud Selig issued in 1997 on the subject on drug abuse in that gargantuan Giambi thread.


Should have probably known it anyway, but I guess I missed that one. :-? I'll go look it up. ;-D
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Postby mtarail » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:15 am

Of course he should be in the Hall.

A. The Roids probably didn't even help him much. Yes, he admits to taking them, but he's also known to work out as much at any guy in pro ball not named Clemens. While younger guys like Piazza and Giambi seemed to fall apart this year of heightened testing Bonds just kept on crushing the ball like always.

B. McGuire is going to the Hall too. He also supposedly unknowingly took a substance that he "should have known" was fishy. Please don't tell me he should have known otherwise. Yet how often do you hear people saying that McGuire shouldn't be in the Hall?
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