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SO WHAT?

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Postby kimchi_chigae » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:59 pm

FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:
kimchi_chigae wrote:i also agree with AA on this one. take what's happening now and make the game better for the future. forget about erasing bonds' number, he cheated, but he didn't do anything illegal according to the mlb rules.


If Bonds was using steroids then yes, he was breaking the rules established by Major League Baseball in 1990.


i'm taking a break to do some reading now. i think i'm misinterpreting the whole situation !+)
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Postby wrveres » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:13 pm

Rkiivs wrote:Oh, I dunno. Probably more disappointment than outrage at the handlers of MLB as much as some of the foolish players.

I believe that baseball reflects life (and NOT 'baseball is life' whatever dumb movie that line came from). Fact is, huge sums of money corrupt almost any endeavor; been that way since its invention. Sports is just the trivial side of that corruption. Bonds hasn't ripped off the nat'l treasury or killed and maimed tens of thousands.

But you're right in one aspect: we have short memories and we'll get past it.

After all:
Black Sox scandal - we got past it
Pete Rose - we got past it
Disco Demolition Night - thankfully we got past this one!
1994 lockout, no WS - we got past it


you forgot the two year experiment known as the DH. We got past that.
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Postby Tavish » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:42 pm

Here is what I posted on my webstie a few days ago. Mark another down for So What???

There is still only one possible way in my mind that the baseball's integrity can be harmed and that is through the act of gambling on baseball and the fixing of baseball games. Does the use of steroids cheapen the accomplishments of the players who use them? Absolutely. No moreso than the countless other cheaters who have played the game, many of which are considered to be legends. In twenty years I suspect that players who don't use some form of external physical enhancement will be looked on the same as players now who don't maintain a strict diet and exercise. Give us your doped up, your cyborgs, your testosterone raging masses. As long as they can hit the ball 500 feet or throw a 100 MPH fastball that is.
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Postby sisyphus » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:04 am

Look, I think some people need to relax a little and get down off of their high horses. I don't like Bonds either. The guy is clearly out for himself and chose to use steroids. However, it is also pretty clear that a large percentage of major leaguers, and minor leaguers as well, used, and may still be using, steroids. Did it give them an advantage over those who didn't ? Sure. But lets face facts. If anyone is to blame for this situation it is major league baseball. The powers that be, owners and the players union, chose to ignore an ongoing problem. Now that it is in the open and has become a major embarrassment we are all appalled and want Bonds, Giambi...etc to pay the price? Come on! Why do we expect the players to have refrained from using something that was readily available and clearly condoned by those in power? By the way, I'm not seeing a whole lot of outrage at our hero Mark "Andro" McGwire. No one seems to feel that he is a big cheater. Why don't we put an asterisk next to his name? In addition, why are people outraged that Bonds didn't and hasn't admitted to using steriods? Why would he do that? Giambi didn't admit it either until someone leaked his tesitmony. It is a sad situation for baseball, but unfortunately is a part of our win at all costs culture. Instead of hammering Bonds and other players maybe we should take a look at how baseball and other sports got in this situation, instead of being pollyanish and moral about certain athlete's choices.
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Re: SO WHAT?

Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:15 am

eftda wrote:IMO, burning one of these three (or all three) will just create more problems. I know everyone of us can think of 7-50 other players who might have taken roids.


Eftda, you seem to have a problem distinguishing between those that "might have taken" roids, and those that have testified that they did take roids, or admitted that they did.

And, as far as I'm concerned, their reputations are tarnished, Bonds' plaque in the Hall--he will get in, sadly--should state that he took steroids, etc. Even if they don't purge records, they will never be looked at the same way again. I'm ok with that.
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Postby Bukoski77 » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:34 am

sisyphus wrote:Look, I think some people need to relax a little and get down off of their high horses. I don't like Bonds either. The guy is clearly out for himself and chose to use steroids. However, it is also pretty clear that a large percentage of major leaguers, and minor leaguers as well, used, and may still be using, steroids. Did it give them an advantage over those who didn't ? Sure. But lets face facts. If anyone is to blame for this situation it is major league baseball. The powers that be, owners and the players union, chose to ignore an ongoing problem. Now that it is in the open and has become a major embarrassment we are all appalled and want Bonds, Giambi...etc to pay the price? Come on! Why do we expect the players to have refrained from using something that was readily available and clearly condoned by those in power? By the way, I'm not seeing a whole lot of outrage at our hero Mark "Andro" McGwire. No one seems to feel that he is a big cheater. Why don't we put an asterisk next to his name? In addition, why are people outraged that Bonds didn't and hasn't admitted to using steriods? Why would he do that? Giambi didn't admit it either until someone leaked his tesitmony. It is a sad situation for baseball, but unfortunately is a part of our win at all costs culture. Instead of hammering Bonds and other players maybe we should take a look at how baseball and other sports got in this situation, instead of being pollyanish and moral about certain athlete's choices.


Good post. Sometimes I think I'm the only one that blames the governing body of baseball as much as the players going back over a decade ago.

A federal probe into a company selling illegal drugs ends up nameing a few baseball stars, suddenly Selig and the rest of baseball says " Oh my god!!! We have to start testing. Players are useing steroids??????"
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:54 am

eftda wrote:
ajgnydc722 wrote:A-Rod a cheater? I'm not crazy about the guy but he's not a cheater, especially if your talking about the arm slap play. :-t


I am. Its against the rules. ;-)


So is stepping on home plate when you're bunting. Man, there are a lot of cheaters in baseball :-°
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Postby ukrneal » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:46 am

If I break the rules, it doesn't necessarily follow that I cheated. If I cheated, I did break the rules.

Why? If a pitcher hits someone with a ball, you broke the rules, which is why the hitter gets a free bag. If I put too much pinetar on my bat, my homerun might be cancelled out, but I'm not cheating. If I put a foreign substance on my cap and pitch a perfect game because of it, I have violated the rules AND cheated. That's because I tried to deceive and defraud you. I used a substance that is not permitted by the rules and I hid that I did it (or tried to). When I get in the way of a runner, for example, there is no deceit and I am punished for my mistake (just like a foul in basketball). Interesting question: Am I cheating if I steal a base?!?!?! :)

I think if Bonds were to come out and say: I thought I was steroid-free, I was deceived, and I want to work to make sure others don't do this, it would go a long way to helping (even though I believe he knew what he was doing). But because he refuses to accept ANY responsibility, I have lost what little respect I had for him. He could easily put this thing to rest. He is one of the most selfish athletes I have ever had the displeasure of watching. Frankly, he made his own mess with the attitude he has.

That said, most of the evidence is still circumstantial at this point (though quite overwhelming it would seem).

Unfortunately, using McGuire as a test-case, I think people in a few years will forgive and forget. His records will stand.
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