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by **LBJackal** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:51 am

TownDrunk, unless you know what you're talking about with ZR, I don't think you should make those kind of statements. I think somebody elses bubble needs bursting... Vizquel is a below average SS defensively and he is only getting worse as he gets older. Players like him who have a few great seasons early in their career get a reputation as great defensively and it carries on throughout their career, long after they decline into mediocrity.

Vizquel went from great in 1996, 1997, and 1998 (.882, .876, .881), to good in 1999 (.862), to borderline mediocre in 2000-2004 (.828, .840, .843, .840). You can follow the trend for 2005-2007 - it ain't lookin pretty. And people still remember him circa 1998, assuming he's still got it.

by **TheYanks04** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:53 am

And who is hitting behind Bonds these days...Alfonzo...Grissom?

by **TownDrunk** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:54 am

1. Does Vizquel have a better ZR than Cruz?

2. Did you see Cruz play SS last season for the Giants? If so, how many games? Would you like me to bring countless Giants fans on here to account for how poorly he is defensively?

And now you’re calling Vizquel below average defensively? Too funny, it never ends it seems.

by **TownDrunk** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:57 am

The Giants rotated Feliz/Alfonzo/AJ behind Bonds last season. With the signing of Vizquel, that will probably move Bonds down to the 4 spot. They could then put say Grissom in the 3 spot, as he’ll like see a lot of fastballs. Finley could be signed to bat behind Bonds.

Durham
Vizquel
Grissom
Bonds
Finley
Feliz/Alfonzo
AJ
Pitcher

That is an upgrade over what they had last season.

by **LBJackal** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:59 am

Yeah Vizquel had a better ZR than Cruz. Not by much, however, and like I said, Vizquel is getting worse as he gets older, if you want to look at the ZR's per year, I posted them above.

I don't know why you think Vizquel isn't below average defensively... what makes you say this?

by **TheYanks04** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:00 am

IF they sign Finley.

And Finley is a candidate for a pretty good falloff.

by **TownDrunk** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:01 am

Can you explain to me how Vizquel went from “He's OK defensively” to “below average” in a matter of hours?

by **LBJackal** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:04 am

TownDrunk wrote:Can you explain to me how Vizquel went from “He's OK defensively” to “below average” in a matter of hours?

He's below average... not good, but OK. What's the problem there? He was 13th out of 22 regulars last season, and that was right in line with his defense the past 5 years.

by **TownDrunk** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:07 am

Being “Okay” defensively and being below average are two different things, nice of you to contradict yourself.

I have to be at work early tomorrow, so I’m done with this. I’ve proven my point repeatedly; I can’t help it if you don’t want to listen to it.

It was fun bantering with you.

by **LBJackal** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:13 am

Proved your point? When, did I miss something? I gave statistical evidence based on every single ball that was hit in Omar's direction over the past 7 seasons, and showed how he consistently got to less of them each season, and you showed... what the fans in Cleveland think of Omar :-?

And calling him OK and below average is the best you can do to discount my evidence........ btu yes it's been fun bantering. Old school baseball fans are becoming a dying breed, you have to witness them before they become extinct :-b

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