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Postby ensanimal » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:54 am

LBJackal wrote:He's OK defensively, but not that good (13th of 22 in ZR... not as good as a lot of people think). He's not good enough for $12M when he's gonna be 40 in a couple years :-o He's only gonna get worse with the glove, and probably finish out his contract as one of the worst defensive SS's in MLB. So I wouldn't call this much of a defensive upgrade. And saying nobody can protect Bonds is silly. There are lots of FA's out there who are capable of protecting Bonds better than he was last year. And maybe Benitez is a headcase... but he's an awesome closer, while Hermanson is unproven and SF fans should know very well what it's like to go a season without a real closer. There are many better ways to spend $12.5M.


agree completely. i believe a lot of people are remembering the vizquel of old. he's not the same defensively as he once was. maybe an upgrade, admittedly haven't seen cruz too much, but not worth the size or length of the contract, especially if it mean s not signing bullpen help.
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Postby TownDrunk » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:03 am

And I think a lot of people are underestimating him. ZR doesn’t tell it all. Go ask a Cleveland fan how he is defensively, and they’ll tell you. He’s still above average in the field, whether you choose to believe it or not. And when you’re starting Cruz at SS, who is atrocious defensively, then this is a clear upgrade. They’ve gotten stronger up the middle.

And no, there is no one that can protect Barry. He’s still going to get walked, no matter what or who you put behind him. And I already explained that the Giants would not have gone out and gotten a marquee bat to put behind him anyways.

Benitez would probably melt under the pressure in SF. Hermanson went what, 17-20 in save opps? So I wouldn’t say he is unproven. The Giants need to concentrate on middle relief and set up, as that’s their main problem. Getting the ball to Hermanson. And they still have the money to do so, so I’m not sure where you all are coming up with the “they don’t have the money to upgrade the pen” schtick.

Sure, there are a lot of ways to spend $12.5 million. And the Giants chose to spend it in a good way, by upgrading themselves defensively up in the middle, something that caused a lot of problems last season.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:17 am

You're believing Cleveland fans over ZR.... oh God.....

And yeah Vizquel is a little better defensively than Cruz, but Cruz is a comparable hitter and would come about $10M cheaper. There are alos other SS's out there, who won't be 40 in a couple years. Sure they still have some money left but not enough for Bonds protection and a real closer.

And if you mean nobody can protect Bonds by making him never get walked, then of course nobody can protect him. With that logic nobody could protect anybody... if you want it done technically: A BETTER HITTER BEHIND BONDS WOULD MAKE PITCHERS PUT THE BALL OVER THE PLATE FOR BARRY MORE OFTEN. Signing Vizquel makes it a lot harder to sign such a hitter. Run scoring isn't a big deal considering they scored so many last year, but getting a closer should be a much higher priority than getting a slight improvement at SS.
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Postby beltrans_boy » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:19 am

Well now the Dodgers have to outdo the Giants by signing Brent Mayne to a 6-year $32.5 Million deal.
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Postby TownDrunk » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:24 am

Ever hear of the saying “stats don’t lie, but they also don’t tell the entire story?”

Vizquel is a “little” better than Cruz defensively? To quote you, “Oh god….”

There were 3 better SS out there, all of which will be making over $6 or 7 million a season, something the Giants wouldn’t be willing to pay. Again, I’ve explained this. Go back and read the entire thread.

And they are currently negotiating with Finley, who is that hitter to put behind Bonds. Again, I’ve already explained that they wouldn’t have gone out and signed a marquee bat. And I’m well aware as to what a big bat behind Barry would do. And you’re wrong, he’d still get the junk pitches and walks because he is that good.

Again, Hermanson should be adequate. Their problems stem from a lack of quality pen arms. Do I need to keep repeating myself?

And it wasn’t a slight improvement at SS, it was a big improvement.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:32 am

Right, Hermanson will be adequate. Do you guys want to be adequate? Or do you want to win? And yes, Vizquel is marginally better than Cruz. Not much, and considering his age and the rate that IF's decline as they get older with regards to range, I doubt the difference between the two will be significant over the next 2 or 3 years.

Stats don't tell the whole story but they tell the relevant part of it... much moreso than a bunch of Indians homers claiming Vizquel is still a top defensive SS...
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Postby TheYanks04 » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:39 am

You would think SF would spend money on getting someone to hit behind Bonds who is not a marginal player.

And Hermanson as a closer is almost laughable. You get what you pay for. Same nonsense that had them using Herges much of last season.
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Postby TownDrunk » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:40 am

The Giants want to win, and Hermanson helps them in that category. He was 17 for 20, that isn’t bad. Again, they lack quality pen arms, that’s the problem.

And sorry to burst your bubble, but Vizquel is a lot better than Cruz defensively. You obviously didn’t watch too many Giants games last season, or you wouldn’t be making such an idiotic statement. He is far superior defensively. It’s even proven using that ZR stat you like to throw about.
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Postby giants8307 » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:42 am

I still think vizquel is an upgrade, but I didn't know his ZR and RF were were so unimpressive. I've lost most of my fervor for this trade. However, it does give us more depth. Good benches are important, and having cruz on it is definitely a good thing.
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Postby TownDrunk » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:44 am

Agreed, Cruz makes a fine UTL player and bat off the bench. But he shouldn't be starting with his lackluster defense.
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