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Managers of the year

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Postby slomo007 » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:50 pm

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:So you guys all agree that Torre should be included on the list?

I guess I just dont see why - maybe some of you can explain to me why falling short of expectations and losing with the highest payrolled team ever constitutes a nomination for manager of the yr.


If you consider that his pitching staff was injured/pathetic all year, he didn't do too bad of a job IMO. I agree he probably shouldn't be on the list, but you have to remember the Yankee bias that is going to exist in all awards.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:53 pm

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:So you guys all agree that Torre should be included on the list?

I guess I just dont see why - maybe some of you can explain to me why falling short of expectations and losing with the highest payrolled team ever constitutes a nomination for manager of the yr.
No I don't think that Torre or Francona should be on that list. But I do believe the Manager of the Year award went to the correct managers.
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Postby Pedantic » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:54 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:So you guys all agree that Torre should be included on the list?

I guess I just dont see why - maybe some of you can explain to me why falling short of expectations and losing with the highest payrolled team ever constitutes a nomination for manager of the yr.
No I don't think that Torre or Francona should be on that list. But I do believe the Manager of the Year award went to the correct managers.


That's my thinking as well. They don't give out awards for second place, as the cliche goes. :-b
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Postby Madison » Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:08 pm

No complaints from me ;-D .

I was one of the people that wrote the Braves off last preseason (oops !+) ), so what Cox did with nothing is incredible.

What Showalter did with the Rangers OF and pitching staff was incredible as well. Everyone predicted last place and sub .500. The Rangers actually had a shot down the stretch. :-)

I agree with both choices. ;-D
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:18 pm

No complaints. Torre didn't do much, but I don't think any AL manager really does. Trammell was also the manager last year when they were horrible, and they added some guys this year and were a lot better. I think it's more hitting coaches, pitching coaches, etc, that help player improvement, not so much the manager. Although they do get a lot of undeserved credit and blame when things go good or bad.
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Postby DK » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:05 pm

I was going to say Torre doesn't deserve it, but look at this:

101-61, Finished 1st in AL Eastern Division
Scored 897 runs, Allowed 808 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 89-73


8-o

Torre got them to overperform their Pyth W-L by TWELVE games. That's huge!

8o
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Postby Baseballer02 » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:07 pm

DK wrote:I was going to say Torre doesn't deserve it, but look at this:

101-61, Finished 1st in AL Eastern Division
Scored 897 runs, Allowed 808 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 89-73


8-o

Torre got them to overperform their Pyth W-L by TWELVE games. That's huge!

8o


I don't know anything about this W-L Pyth. formular you're talking about, but shouldn't the majority of it be attributed to the players, and not the coach?
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm

DK wrote:I was going to say Torre doesn't deserve it, but look at this:

101-61, Finished 1st in AL Eastern Division
Scored 897 runs, Allowed 808 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 89-73


8-o

Torre got them to overperform their Pyth W-L by TWELVE games. That's huge!

8o


I don't think the manager has a ton to do with being better than a team's Pythagorean W-L. It just means when they lost, they lost big. I'm sure that 22-0 blowout to Cleveland didn't help :-D

Giving Torre credit for correctly distributing the way his team allowed runs to score, sheesh. What's next, Jeter gets credit for Vazquez having a much improved 2005? :-°
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Postby DK » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:24 pm

LBJackal wrote:
DK wrote:I was going to say Torre doesn't deserve it, but look at this:

101-61, Finished 1st in AL Eastern Division
Scored 897 runs, Allowed 808 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 89-73


8-o

Torre got them to overperform their Pyth W-L by TWELVE games. That's huge!

8o


I don't think the manager has a ton to do with being better than a team's Pythagorean W-L. It just means when they lost, they lost big. I'm sure that 22-0 blowout to Cleveland didn't help :-D

Giving Torre credit for correctly distributing the way his team allowed runs to score, sheesh. What's next, Jeter gets credit for Vazquez having a much improved 2005? :-°


It's actually been proven (in an article by Alan Schwarz of the NY Times) that managers DO have a direct influence on the Pythagorean W-L of their team. Let me see if I can find the article.
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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:28 pm

The only argument for either AL or NL is maybe Garner for what he did the second half, but then again Cox and Showalter did it for 162 games.
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