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NL MVP: Beltre or Bonds...

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NL MVP: Beltre or Bonds...

Postby mojowitt » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:25 pm

Bonds
HR=43 (23.5% of SF total of 183)
RBI=101 (12.5% of SF total of 805)
Runs=129 (15.2% of SF total of 850)

Beltre
HR=48 (23.6% of LA total of 203)
RBI=121 (16.6% of LA total of 731)
Runs=104 (13.7% of LA total of 761)


If MVP goes to the most valuable player to his team, Beltre should be considered over Bonds. Any thoughts...?
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Postby slomo007 » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:35 pm

This does not account for Bonds' walk totals. I understand the argument you are making, but you have to at least consider the walks, and therefore runs produced by Bonds.
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Postby raiders_umpire » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:38 pm

slomo007 wrote:This does not account for Bonds' walk totals. I understand the argument you are making, but you have to at least consider the walks, and therefore runs produced by Bonds.



yep give bonds the same amount of at bats as beltre then see what the numbers would look like......bonds all the way......
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Postby mojowitt » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:46 pm

I did account for those walks. If they resulted in a run or an RBI, it was a productive walk. If they didnt, it meant nothing as It didnt help the team in any meaningful way. I know its not Bond's fault that he's walked, and yes, if he had the same at bats, he'd likely have better numbers than Beltre. But that was not the case, and you shouldnt give an MVP award out to someone based on speculation of what that player could have done if circumstances were different.
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Postby slomo007 » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:54 pm

mojowitt wrote:I did account for those walks. If they resulted in a run or an RBI, it was a productive walk. If they didnt, it meant nothing as It didnt help the team in any meaningful way. I know its not Bond's fault that he's walked, and yes, if he had the same at bats, he'd likely have better numbers than Beltre. But that was not the case, and you shouldnt give an MVP award out to someone based on speculation of what that player could have done if circumstances were different.


OK, scenario:

Runner on first, 2 outs, Bonds at the plate. He is intentionally walked, pushing the runner to 2nd. The next batter singles, scoring the runner from 2nd, but not Bonds. The following batter strikes out and the inning is over.

Bonds doesn't get an RBI or Run in his stats, yet he essentially enabled a scored run for his team. These are the stats you neglected.
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Postby mojowitt » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:07 pm

You are correct, I did not give Bonds credit for moving runners into scoring position via a walk for someone else to hit in. I also recognize that has value, but who keeps those stats? How many times did this occur? Did Bonds do it more than Beltre? I dont think one should use a theoretical stat to make a determination. If those numbers area available, I say the voters should consider them. If not, you have to go by what is available and those numbers say Beltre...
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Postby kentx12 » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:26 pm

Where do you have Pujols in here??? Wasnt he playing in the WS while Bonds was sitting at home. IMO he is the MVP.
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Re: NL MVP: Beltre or Bonds...

Postby LCBOY » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:37 pm

mojowitt wrote:Bonds
HR=43 (23.5% of SF total of 183)
RBI=101 (12.5% of SF total of 805)
Runs=129 (15.2% of SF total of 850)

Beltre
HR=48 (23.6% of LA total of 203)
RBI=121 (16.6% of LA total of 731)
Runs=104 (13.7% of LA total of 761)


If MVP goes to the most valuable player to his team, Beltre should be considered over Bonds. Any thoughts...?


Another NL MVP thread? We can't too many of those, right? :-[

How about these stats?

Run Created
Bonds-185
Betre-135

RC/27
Bonds-20.2
Betre-8.7

Win Shares
Bonds 53
Beltre 38


Bonds simply generates far more runs than anybody else. You can't just compare stats like HRs, RBI, and runs scored without taking into account the context in which thse runs were created. Win shares tranlates runs into win is the point of playing baseball right?

You also convienently failed to mention that Beltre had 598 ABs while Bonds had 373 AB. That a difference of 225 ABs! Also Beltre made many more outs than Bonds. That's the kew about Bonds' walks. When ever Bonds walks, instead of making an out, he is extending the inning and the Giants are one step closer to scoring a run.

Beltre Outs
outs = 692 PA - 196 hits- 53 BBs-4 SF= 439 outs

Bonds outs
outs = 617 PA - 135 hits - 232 BBs - 3 SF = 247 outs

Beltre made 192 more outs. That is over 7 games worth of outs. One last stat, Beltre grounded into 15 double plays, Bonds grounded into only five double plays.
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Postby mojowitt » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:39 pm

kentx12 wrote:Where do you have Pujols in here??? Wasnt he playing in the WS while Bonds was sitting at home. IMO he is the MVP.


Good point. I took Beltre as an example but lets take a look at Albert's contribution to his team's total production:

Pujols
HR=46 (21.5% of STL total of 214)
RBI=123 (15.0% of STL total of 817)
Runs= 133 (15.5% of STL total of 855)

Bonds
HR=43 (23.5% of SF total of 183)
RBI=101 (12.5% of SF total of 805)
Runs=129 (15.2% of SF total of 850)

Beltre
HR=48 (23.6% of LA total of 203)
RBI=121 (16.6% of LA total of 731)
Runs=104 (13.7% of LA total of 761)

So it looks like, based solely on this comparison, both Pujols and Beltre meant more to their teams' offensive production than Bonds did to his. Its pretty close though...
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Postby LCBOY » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:40 pm

kentx12 wrote:Where do you have Pujols in here??? Wasnt he playing in the WS while Bonds was sitting at home. IMO he is the MVP.


..And what was Pujols' batting average in the World Series? And how many HRs and RBI did he have?
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