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Has Gagne vs Rivera been settled?

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Postby CubsFan7724 » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:31 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:
INKcogKNEEdough wrote:ummmmmm NO.....sure the sparkle on Rivera's star is a bit less shiny, but Gagne still hasn't done anything in the postseason either. Don't get me wrong i can see that side of the argument and could even make a case for gagne, but as of now i still would have to go with rivera.

INKcogKNEEdough


I completely agree and appreciate your honesty as a Red Sox fan, ink.

Rivera blew a save sure. But does Gagne even have a save in postseason ball? No, he has to prove he can dominate on that stage before he can be bumped up to Mariano status.
You keep saying that Gagne has done nothing in the postseason, but how is that his fault? A closer can only get saves when his offense and starting pitching hands him the lead. I guarantee you he is as dominant, if not more dominant now than Rivera is now or has been recently in the postseason if he is on the Yankees.. Gagne's been doing it three years now, so I don't think there is any chance that he was a fluke. Lidge could be a fluke, but he has been one of the most dominant closers ever in postseason baseball. I think he has something like 8 IP, 14 Ks, and just 1 hit! I just dont understand it, Gagne just doesn't blow saves, period. Rivera does, especially against the Red Sox. He was absolutely killed by the Red Sox this year. Gagne has blown 2 saves in the past 2 and a half years. He has a ridiculous save streak that probably won't be touched, except maybe by himself. Rivera has blown 4 this season, a couple more last year, and 2! this year in just one series. I am not saying Rivera isn't great, hes top 2. But he is starting to slip, and Gagne has been consistently dominant. He is the top closer in baseball, postseason experience or not.
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Postby Lofunzo » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:45 pm

If you don't want to hold the fact that Gagne has never pitched in the playoffs against him, fine. You can't hold the fact that Rivera has against him, either. Gagne is great but if I have 1 out to get in the playoffs, I will still take Rivera. The jury is still out on this 1, though. If we are starting to see the downside of Rivera's career, that's fine and eventually expected. He has had an amazing 8 year run here. ;-D
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:00 pm

Lofunzo wrote:If you don't want to hold the fact that Gagne has never pitched in the playoffs against him, fine. You can't hold the fact that Rivera has against him, either. Gagne is great but if I have 1 out to get in the playoffs, I will still take Rivera. The jury is still out on this 1, though. If we are starting to see the downside of Rivera's career, that's fine and eventually expected. He has had an amazing 8 year run here. ;-D
One out to get? Give me Gagne or Lidge. I guess we agree to disagree. The dominance we have seen from Lidge in crunch time is amazing.
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:12 pm

Rivera has been the best closer the post-season has ever seen.

Problem is, most closers don't see more than a couple playoff series. He's been in 23. From what I've seen, closers who have good control and don't walk a lot of batters have control in the post-season. That seems to be the trend, although I don't have a whole bunch of stats to give. If I had a choice to have any closer for the playoffs this year, it would have been Gagne #1, and Rivera #2. Sure Rivera's 2 consecutive blown saves might have hard to convert, but do I think Gagne would have blown both? Not a chance, IMO. I doubt he wouldn't have blown the first one, which was a simple (by simple I mean no inherited runners) 2 inning save. I don't think there would have been a game 6 if Gagne was their closer.
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Postby Lofunzo » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:14 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:If you don't want to hold the fact that Gagne has never pitched in the playoffs against him, fine. You can't hold the fact that Rivera has against him, either. Gagne is great but if I have 1 out to get in the playoffs, I will still take Rivera. The jury is still out on this 1, though. If we are starting to see the downside of Rivera's career, that's fine and eventually expected. He has had an amazing 8 year run here. ;-D
One out to get? Give me Gagne or Lidge. I guess we agree to disagree. The dominance we have seen from Lidge in crunch time is amazing.


We can agree to disagree. The problem with Gagne or Lidge is a smaller body of work. Once they can show what they can do over time, it will be easier to discuss. ;-D
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Postby FatGuyWithAMullet » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:25 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:If you don't want to hold the fact that Gagne has never pitched in the playoffs against him, fine. You can't hold the fact that Rivera has against him, either. Gagne is great but if I have 1 out to get in the playoffs, I will still take Rivera. The jury is still out on this 1, though. If we are starting to see the downside of Rivera's career, that's fine and eventually expected. He has had an amazing 8 year run here. ;-D
One out to get? Give me Gagne or Lidge. I guess we agree to disagree. The dominance we have seen from Lidge in crunch time is amazing.


Dominance in crunch time? He's already blown a save..that doesn't translate. Dominance is Rivera being 24/24 in saves until game 7 of the '01 WS.
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Postby beltrans_boy » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:32 pm

As of October 21, 2004, I'll take Gagne 7 days a week.

Rivera just can't beat the Red Sox anymore. Gagne beats the Giants day in and day out, including must-win games that can be likened to the playoffs.

Rivera is a more proven closer, yes, but Gagne is the most dominating closer in the major leagues, with Lidge a close second. Rivera is third in my book.
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Postby Lofunzo » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:48 pm

beltrans_boy wrote:Rivera is a more proven closer, yes, but Gagne is the most dominating closer in the major leagues, with Lidge a close second. Rivera is third in my book.


When drafting a fantasy team, I would agree.
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Postby so0perspam » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:14 pm

Gagne is the man, no doubt.
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Postby thetongueofire » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:03 pm

if Rivera had converted Game 7 of 01 WS and one of his two BS in this ALCS, Yankees couldve had two more WS.

he has cost the Yankees a couple of very important games. he's not the same guy he was say a few years ago. Right now, i'd take Gagne. but if it was Rivera of a few years ago, i'd take him over Gagne.
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