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Postby DK » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:17 pm

LCBOY wrote:
dannahann wrote:Good point about Thomas coming up B4 the offenses went SO crazy. I wasn't aware Thomas came B4 his birthday in MAY? If so he was indeed 22, not 23 as I may have wrongly assumed?? If he did come up that early in his rookie year I don't really remember him playing all that much B4 the break. Again, I apopolgize if I was wrong.


Thomas' birthdate is 5/27/68. He debuted on 8/2/90 making him 22 years 66 days days old. ;-D


Same birthdate as Bags, if memory serves. ;D
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Postby thetongueofire » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:52 pm

Pujols easily. it's sick how good he is at such a young age.
[size=10]Manny Ramirez....$20 million
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Postby ukrneal » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:19 am

I would disagree - I think many teams have built their teams around CF, just more quietly and without fanfare. WHy do I say this? Well - how about this list:

1. Bernie Williams - Yanks.
2. Tori Hunter - Twins
3. A Jones - Atlanta
4. Vernon Wells - Toronto

The first three have been consistently successful, despite many changes in personnel around them. At one time or another, all of these have been (or will be) the centerpiece of the ballclub. There are other more controversial CFs (like Edmonds, Pierre, Finley, etc.) around whom the offense has created at one time in their careers as well.

Just a thought...
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Postby LBJackal » Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:29 pm

I find it hard to believe that Bernie is their centerpiece. Jeter is moreso the center of it. Same with Delgado in Toronto, not Wells (Although Wells very well could be the best CF in baseball). And Chipper in Atlanta, not Andruw. Even so, would it matter if some teams had a CF as their centerpiece? I'm sure if they had Pujols they would be quick to say who their marquee player is ;-D

And of course Pujols is the best defensive 1B; he's a cheater. Did you seem him throw his glove at the ball? :-b
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:12 pm

LBJackal wrote:Yep, it'd be Pujols I'd want. Beltran is great for fantasy, and in real life too, just not as great though because speed doesn't help as much. Definately Pujols.


I was gonna say this. We are clouding our real baseball thoughts by bringing fantasy into this if we would start a team with Beltran over Pujols. :-?
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Postby FatGuyWithAMullet » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:44 pm

LCBOY wrote:
FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:Who would you rather build a franchise around; Andre Dawson or Joe DiMaggio?


Come on now. Pujols is a little better than Dawson...


You really think I was comparing Pujols to Dawson?

Pujols is the rarest breed of player; capable of being placed in the same tier as the likes of Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Barry Bonds and so on. Beltran will never, ever touch that legendary status.

This is no contest whatsoever.
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Postby MikeeDee » Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:02 pm

Pujols over Beltran. I'd like to add that while Beltran is good on defense, he's not a Gold Glove type player. Others play their position better.
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Postby LCBOY » Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:32 am

FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:
LCBOY wrote:
FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:Who would you rather build a franchise around; Andre Dawson or Joe DiMaggio?


Come on now. Pujols is a little better than Dawson...


You really think I was comparing Pujols to Dawson?

Pujols is the rarest breed of player; capable of being placed in the same tier as the likes of Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Barry Bonds and so on. Beltran will never, ever touch that legendary status.

This is no contest whatsoever.


Pujols is a wonderous talent but let's not get carried away. Let's give him 10 years in the league before we can compare him the legends of the game. Since Pujols is a first baseman he must be compared to great first baseman. First base is one of the most stacked positions in the Hall of Fame:

Lou Gerhig
Jimmy Fox
Hank Greenberg
Bill Terry
George Sisler
Eddie Murray
Willie McCovey
Cap Anson


Just to name a few. Then you still have Mark McGwire, Frank Thomas, and Jeff Bagwell...

According the http://www.Baseball-Reference.com using Bill James Similarity Score system, through four seasons the "most similar" player to Pujols purely as a hitter is Joe DiMaggio. Here are the top 10 most similar players through four seasons:

1.Joe DiMaggio (928) *
2.Jimmie Foxx (912) *
3. Ted Williams (903) *
4. Vladimir Guerrero (888)
5. Frank Robinson (887) *
6. Hal Trosky (882)
7. Hank Aaron (876) *
8. Joe Medwick (868) *
9. Orlando Cepeda (867) *
10. Ken Griffey Jr. (862)

That is very impressive list!! There are two caveats though:

1) Similarity Scores ONLY take into account offensive not defense. Joe D was a fleet footed Gold Glove calibre center fielder and Pujols is a first baseman, a good one, though.

2) Similarity Scores don't make adjustments for different eras. I'd be interested to see what kind of Win Shares Joe D and Pujols had through four years.

A lot can happen to a player through out their career. Injuries can ruin a players chance at greatness. Remember Ken Griffey Jr? Through age 30 he had a shot at being perhaps the greatest center fielder of all time, had a shot at 800 HRs, and 200 RBIs, etc. Of course things are very different now.

Still I love Pujols and if I have the top pick in next season's draft he WILL be my #1 pick. ;-D
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Postby wrveres » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:33 am

Interesting ...

where is the "franchise building" love for Miguel Cabrera ?

I mean he is only 21 and just completed his first full season.
.294 BA
101 Runs
33 HRs
112 RBIs ...

And here is Pujols first season, on a much better team mind you
.314 BA
118 Runs
34 HR's
127 RBIS

Plus Pujols gets to play in the NL Central vs. the NL East, which might even skew his numbers up just a touch. Don't get me wrong, I would take Pujols over any of them, but if I was building a team, I would probably take Cabrera over Beltran tough ...
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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:57 am

wrveres wrote:Interesting ...

where is the "franchise building" love for Miguel Cabrera ?

I mean he is only 21 and just completed his first full season.
.294 BA
101 Runs
33 HRs
112 RBIs ...

And here is Pujols first season, on a much better team mind you
.314 BA
118 Runs
34 HR's
127 RBIS

Plus Pujols gets to play in the NL Central vs. the NL East, which might even skew his numbers up just a touch. Don't get me wrong, I would take Pujols over any of them, but if I was building a team, I would probably take Cabrera over Beltran tough ...


I know it's just me, but I'm still not a big believer in Cabrera yet. I'd take Beltran any day over Cabrera, regardless of the age difference.
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