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THOUGHTS ON THIS??

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Postby LBJackal » Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:55 pm

Madison wrote:
LBJackal wrote:I know what I'm talking about, and in this situation, the incident we're talking about does not give CPS to right to take action against the parents. They may very well investigate to see if they HAVE done something, or neglected to do something, that would warrant the kid being taken away.

Sometimes you think you know everything... I'm well aware of the problems with kids being out of control. I definately think something needs to be done. In lots of cases, kids should be taken away. In this case, based on solely this instance; no. Keep your assumptions to yourself until you have something to back them up.


Where did I say he WOULD be taken away? I said the would "look into it". Who's making assumptions now? What assumption? I didn't say you said anyhting... ?

As to backing up my opinions, that's quite funny. It's known all over the Cafe' that you cannot back up most anything you say with facts. You lose every one of these types of discussions no matter who they are with because of comments like:

LBJackal wrote:he should be punished by his parents. If they don't punish him, that's too bad. What can you do?


That one. There is absolutely zero defense for it. It's wrong, and so far off base it's in another stadium. I said this kid should be punished by his parents. If it's not a crime, which I don't believe it is, then nothing can be done about it. I'm still amazed you keep opening the door for such ridicule when it's happened so many times already.

Anyway, enough of these kiddie games. You want to bring some facts to the table as to why the kid shouldn't go to jail, feel free. Want to bring more unsubstantiated and uninformed claims, I could care less. :-°


The kid shouldn't go to jail if he didn't break the law..... that's what I'm saying. I said way back on page 1, "how did that law pass". Sarcastically at the time, because I couldn't believe a country promoting free speech would send you to jail for swearing, so long as no threats were involved.
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Postby Madison » Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:00 pm

LBJackal wrote:
Madison wrote:Why not put him in jail (not a prison) with Barney Fife for 30 days? It's really not that big of a deal and it will get the point across. What's the harm in that? He won't be hurt, killed, hungry, etc. No harm other than he's under lock and key for 30 days. Why is that such a problem?


First of all, sending a 17 year old kid to jail is far from a sure thing for straightening them out. I knew 3 people in high school who were in jail when they were 17. One is still there and he's almost 21, one is a crackhead and I'm not sure if he's still alive (wasn't looking too good when I saw him last year), and the other is in jail for killing a guy I went to school with for 13 years. Yes it helps in some cases, but it can also send kids down the wrong path. It is not a simple solution like you make it out to be. If more attention was given to the kids instead of tossing them in jail when they were 16 and 17, would they have turned out differently? Who knows.

All I'm saying is don't be so quick to throw kids in jail for swearing. There are other ways to discipline them, and if parents don't take that intiative when a kid does something like that, there is not much you can do. If it continues to happen, then the parents aren't fit to have custody, so take the kids away. My point was you can't take every kid who swears at his teacher and throw him in jail.


I agree that more time needs to be spent with the kids. ;-D

I agree that jail time is not a guarantee of success, but at the same time, I don't believe it would hurt anything either.

I have to admit that I don't see how committing a crime and going to jail for it would send someone down the wrong path though :-? . Do the crime, do the time. It's the way the world works. Maybe I'm missing something.

I also agree that I'm not saying take every kid who swears at his teacher to jail. I'm saying this kid in particular. He's 17, has had prior diciplinary problems, and used language (cussing) to provoke violence. It's all right there in the article. In this case I do believe jail time is warranted.

charged him with disorderly conduct, saying his language was meant to provoke violence.


Not to mention that what he did is illegal. B-)


P.S. If the guy you went to school with for 13 years was a friend, then I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Unfortunately, I do understand since we had several kids murdered every year in my high school as well. :,-(
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Postby Madison » Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:16 pm

LBJackal wrote:The kid shouldn't go to jail if he didn't break the law..... that's what I'm saying. I said way back on page 1, "how did that law pass". Sarcastically at the time, because I couldn't believe a country promoting free speech would send you to jail for swearing, so long as no threats were involved.


Seems he was charged with an official "crime", so he must have broken a law. In this case jail time is an option.

Curious as to why you correlate "freedom of speech" with total disregard for everyone around you though. There's a big difference in having the right to say what you think, and infringing on someone else's right not to have to hear, or put up with it. You can't have both, and the law tells us where those lines are drawn. He crossed those lines, as do people every day, and now he has to pay the price for it.

Not to mention that this is a 17 year old kid we are talking about. Being able to cuss out whoever you want to is not a right that Americans are born with, and it's not even one that we earn no matter how old we are. I still fail to realize how you think the kid going to jail is a big deal. A kid overstepped his bounds, broke a law, and is facing jail time (a legally enforcable punishment for the law that was broken). No different than a 17 year old kid murdering a teacher. He'd get the death penalty (at least in Texas. Probably life in other states). Crime happens, and then the legally enforcable punishment for the crime is carried out. Different crimes, but the same steps are taken. I've got to be missing something somewhere. :-?
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:00 pm

The way the people I knew treated jail, it was as a joke. It didn't help them at all. Obviously this isn't the case with all people, I'm sure it's beneficial in many cases. The ones I knew, they'd brag about being out on a weekend pass (not sure how that works, or if it's used in the US. Maybe just for minors, I'm not sure), they'd tell people they were in jail as if they were proud.

For some people, once they hit jail they think it's the end of the line; think they've failed, and this is where they belong. For others, it's a shock to them and they straighten out. As much as it seems corny, bootcamp ala Jenny Jones or something seems like a viable solution. Mostly for the younger kids; once they get older, jail might be the only easy option left.

But yes, people who break the law deserve the punishment. My point the whole time was that I couldn't imagine they'd make swearing in school punishable by jail time. And I didn't say it violates the kid's right to free speech... but "I couldn't believe a country promoting free speech would send you to jail for swearing, so long as no threats were involved". As in, yeah it's punishable, but jail time seems excessive considering the value placed on free speech. I think it should depend on the degree of the situation... simply swearing alone I don't think is that serious in HS.

I wasn't close friends with the guy who was killed... he lived about 5 minutes away, but he was headed down the wrong road from the start and was heavily involved in drugs and crime, and therefore had a different group of friends than me. His best friend was the guy who killed him. The killer actually seemed like a nice guy throughout HS... polite, kind, but if you got on his bad side, that was the end of it.
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Postby Madison » Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:20 pm

LBJackal wrote:The way the people I knew treated jail, it was as a joke. It didn't help them at all. Obviously this isn't the case with all people, I'm sure it's beneficial in many cases. The ones I knew, they'd brag about being out on a weekend pass (not sure how that works, or if it's used in the US. Maybe just for minors, I'm not sure), they'd tell people they were in jail as if they were proud.

The ones that act that way are most likely too far gone to be helped. Sad as that is.

Yes, jails do issue weekend passes down here for those who earn them by behaving and using their time wisely. IE: studying, working, etc.


For some people, once they hit jail they think it's the end of the line; think they've failed, and this is where they belong. For others, it's a shock to them and they straighten out. As much as it seems corny, bootcamp ala Jenny Jones or something seems like a viable solution. Mostly for the younger kids; once they get older, jail might be the only easy option left.

Agreed. Some do see it as the end of the line. Others though, rebound and straighten out. I like the bootcamp idea and would like to see it used more. I'm wondering if the cost is too high and that's why that option isn't used more often for problem kids. I have no idea what they run though. Not even a ballpark figure.

But yes, people who break the law deserve the punishment. My point the whole time was that I couldn't imagine they'd make swearing in school punishable by jail time. And I didn't say it violates the kid's right to free speech... but "I couldn't believe a country promoting free speech would send you to jail for swearing, so long as no threats were involved". As in, yeah it's punishable, but jail time seems excessive considering the value placed on free speech. I think it should depend on the degree of the situation... simply swearing alone I don't think is that serious in HS.

True. swearing really isn't that big of a deal depending on context. When cussing out a teacher, it crosses the line though. You have to remember that kids are graduating dumber and dumber nowadays with less and less respect and upbringing due to a breakdown in the household. Newer and stronger punishments will have to be used to get the point across.

I wasn't close friends with the guy who was killed... he lived about 5 minutes away, but he was headed down the wrong road from the start and was heavily involved in drugs and crime, and therefore had a different group of friends than me. His best friend was the guy who killed him. The killer actually seemed like a nice guy throughout HS... polite, kind, but if you got on his bad side, that was the end of it.

At least none of them were close or good friends. Glad to hear it.


See, we can have a civilized discussion. ;-)

:-D
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:05 pm

Madison wrote:
LBJackal wrote:The way the people I knew treated jail, it was as a joke. It didn't help them at all. Obviously this isn't the case with all people, I'm sure it's beneficial in many cases. The ones I knew, they'd brag about being out on a weekend pass (not sure how that works, or if it's used in the US. Maybe just for minors, I'm not sure), they'd tell people they were in jail as if they were proud.

The ones that act that way are most likely too far gone to be helped. Sad as that is.

Yes, jails do issue weekend passes down here for those who earn them by behaving and using their time wisely. IE: studying, working, etc.


For some people, once they hit jail they think it's the end of the line; think they've failed, and this is where they belong. For others, it's a shock to them and they straighten out. As much as it seems corny, bootcamp ala Jenny Jones or something seems like a viable solution. Mostly for the younger kids; once they get older, jail might be the only easy option left.

Agreed. Some do see it as the end of the line. Others though, rebound and straighten out. I like the bootcamp idea and would like to see it used more. I'm wondering if the cost is too high and that's why that option isn't used more often for problem kids. I have no idea what they run though. Not even a ballpark figure.

But yes, people who break the law deserve the punishment. My point the whole time was that I couldn't imagine they'd make swearing in school punishable by jail time. And I didn't say it violates the kid's right to free speech... but "I couldn't believe a country promoting free speech would send you to jail for swearing, so long as no threats were involved". As in, yeah it's punishable, but jail time seems excessive considering the value placed on free speech. I think it should depend on the degree of the situation... simply swearing alone I don't think is that serious in HS.

True. swearing really isn't that big of a deal depending on context. When cussing out a teacher, it crosses the line though. You have to remember that kids are graduating dumber and dumber nowadays with less and less respect and upbringing due to a breakdown in the household. Newer and stronger punishments will have to be used to get the point across.

I wasn't close friends with the guy who was killed... he lived about 5 minutes away, but he was headed down the wrong road from the start and was heavily involved in drugs and crime, and therefore had a different group of friends than me. His best friend was the guy who killed him. The killer actually seemed like a nice guy throughout HS... polite, kind, but if you got on his bad side, that was the end of it.

At least none of them were close or good friends. Glad to hear it.


See, we can have a civilized discussion. ;-)

:-D


8-o

Also, I think if they're going to jail kids for swearing, a 3 strikes, or 2 strikes your out program would be better. The first offense being a warning along with whatever else they want to do. And not just for swearing... for any sort of serious disruption, aggresiveness, etc.
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Re: THOUGHTS ON THIS??

Postby SGTdaniel » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:14 am

Lofunzo wrote:
2. Man who hosted 'whites-only' party gets 30-day jail term
Punishment includes 100 hours of community service, letters of apology

Whites-only party wasn't the problem. It was everything he did in the article. 30 days jail isn't enough. Humiliated a 16 year old kid, put signs with swasticas in the yard, scratched a swastica into a car, and had a live weapon (shotgun)? I'd say at least 6 months to a year easily in the pokey.

6 months? For what? Humiliated a 16 year old? I don't know exactly what he did, but is that against the law? Don't think so. Signs with swasticas in the yard? So what? Is that against the law? Honestly I'm not sure but I can't imagine it is. Scratched a swastica in a car; punsih him for vandalism. Had a live weapon; is that against the law in Texas? I know you're a big proponent of anybody and everybody carrying guns, but I'm not sure of the laws. Is that illegal? If so, punsih him for that. Humiliating a kid and having swasticas on your lawn is perfectly fine, legally, IMO.

Intimidation of a child by an adult is NOT legal. Is it legal in Canada to go out and corner a 16 year old kid and degrade him by making him say racial slurs? I think not. It is in fact illegal. The signs are simply in poor taste, and not real sure about the actual illegality of it, but certainly doesn't help his cause. Vandalism is noted. The whole live weapon argument is moot since he had no permit. Yes, I'm certainly for people being able to responsibly handle a firearm for protection, but they also need to be licensed and registered. License and registration is also required in Texas. That's not the same as what this guy did. He instigated a problem and then illegally armed himself.

Hey,

I happened to Google myself and came across this discussion you were all having on my littel screw up back in 2000. Im glad you all have opinions regarding this matter, and some of you really make some good points! I would like to inform everyone that yes, I spent 30 days in county jail on work-release. I was 18 and stupid, mistakes happen. Blame my parents all you want, however, they had nothing to do with it. I was a rebel and still am.

Just for the record, I spent 30 days in county jail, 3 years on probabtion with bi-weekly visits to the probation office, DID write those letters of apology, paid all restitution and also had to PAY to be on probabtion, which came to about $900 for those 3 years. I lost my job at the airport when they did a random security check and found I was charged with Carrying a Concealed Weapon. I am now in the active duty Army because I couldnt get a job for the life of me that would have been able to pay my bills and support my daughter. So I enlisted. I still to this day cannot get a security clearance, which keeps me from going Special Forces, which I wanted to do. So now, 8 years after the fact, I am still barred from owning a handgun or getting any kind of security related job. Even though I have served in the 82nd Airborne Division honorably for 4 years, achieved the rank of Sergeant, and spent over 20 months deployed to either Iraq or Afghanistan I am still suffering from my one single mistake back in high school which I only did because I was hanging with the wrong group of guys, who never really put me up to anything besides the party, but none the less I wanted so bad to impress.

So everyone here that holds the rightous attitude of "they should all burn for their crimes", let me be the one to tell you that I have spent my time, more than my time, and am still paying the consequences of something stupid I did just after I turned 18. My fault, I was misguided back then, but do I really deserve all this??? 8 years later and I still pay the price daily......all because I had a pocket knife on me while going to a redneck country bumpkin school where EVERYBODY had a pick-up truck and a knife.

Oh, and by the way, there was no shotgun involved, ever, so take your news stories with a grain of salt. And it isnt illegal to own a shotgun anyway. You just have to be 18 to PURCHASE one. Humiliating a 16 year old? And saying a 16 year old is a CHILD??!! Come on people, you know for a fact that a 16 year BELIEVES in his heart and mind that he is an adult and usually tries to act like one. That "CHILD" used to push me down the steps for fun because he was bigger than me. The person who actually humiliated him was a friend of mine who happened to be standing up for me, so again, failure of the media to report what REALLY happened. I do not condone what I did, however, the news article blew the entire incident WAY out of proportion. Remember, you may make judgements all you want on people's lives, but if you dont actually know the WHOLE story or werent there, cut some of these "kids" some slack. Granted not all of them are good kids gone wrong, but you cannot hang everyone just because one year he's 16, and the next he turns 17. Do YOU remember what it was like to be 17??????
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Re: THOUGHTS ON THIS??

Postby mweir145 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:02 am

Well this is interesting. A subject of a discussion here has actually come and made a post long after the fact. Has this ever happened before?

LB Jackal was gone before I even got here (A Canadian I guess he was, would have been nice to have another one on these forums), but Madison is still here, and I highly doubt his opinion will have changed.

It's admirable, sgtdaniel, that you've turned your life around, and I commend you on your service in Iraq/Afganistan. It sucks that you've had some problems along the way due to your mistake, but it just shows how costly those errors in judgement can be in life, even little ones.
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Re: THOUGHTS ON THIS??

Postby JTWood » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:45 pm

mweir145 wrote:Well this is interesting. A subject of a discussion here has actually come and made a post long after the fact. Has this ever happened before?

I think this is a first. 8-o
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Re: THOUGHTS ON THIS??

Postby Dr.Cox » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:23 pm

In all my time here that is the-HE-he craziest thing I've seen.
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