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Postby Bloody Nipples » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:18 pm

SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:
Bloody Nipples wrote:Does nobody have an argument for Beltre or Pujols? I mean, come on, Barry's team didnt even make the playoffs! ;-7 :-D


I really want to argue for Pujols and especially Rolen as a value pick salary wise (because IMO that should be part of it and is always overlooked ie A-Rod), but the Giants truly are just Schmidt, Bonds, and a bunch of utility players compared to STL. It's a testament to Bonds' ability that the Giants could even sniff the pennant race all year.


Well said. With regards to what the salary thing, I have an interesting anecdote:

My friend (a moneyball freak) found this site (sorry, I dont know the url) where you plug in a player's moneyball stats and his salary, and it tells you how much that player is over- or under-payed. According to that site, Bonds is underpayed by about $15 million.
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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:19 pm

Bloody Nipples wrote:
SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:
Bloody Nipples wrote:Does nobody have an argument for Beltre or Pujols? I mean, come on, Barry's team didnt even make the playoffs! ;-7 :-D


I really want to argue for Pujols and especially Rolen as a value pick salary wise (because IMO that should be part of it and is always overlooked ie A-Rod), but the Giants truly are just Schmidt, Bonds, and a bunch of utility players compared to STL. It's a testament to Bonds' ability that the Giants could even sniff the pennant race all year.


Well said. With regards to what the salary thing, I have an interesting anecdote:

My friend (a moneyball freak) found this site (sorry, I dont know the url) where you plug in a player's moneyball stats and his salary, and it tells you how much that player is over- or under-payed. According to that site, Bonds is underpayed by about $15 million.


If you believe in moneyball, that is. :-D
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Postby Bloody Nipples » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:23 pm

SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:
Bloody Nipples wrote:
SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:
Bloody Nipples wrote:Does nobody have an argument for Beltre or Pujols? I mean, come on, Barry's team didnt even make the playoffs! ;-7 :-D


I really want to argue for Pujols and especially Rolen as a value pick salary wise (because IMO that should be part of it and is always overlooked ie A-Rod), but the Giants truly are just Schmidt, Bonds, and a bunch of utility players compared to STL. It's a testament to Bonds' ability that the Giants could even sniff the pennant race all year.


Well said. With regards to what the salary thing, I have an interesting anecdote:

My friend (a moneyball freak) found this site (sorry, I dont know the url) where you plug in a player's moneyball stats and his salary, and it tells you how much that player is over- or under-payed. According to that site, Bonds is underpayed by about $15 million.


If you believe in moneyball, that is. :-D


True. I am not sure how accurate that site is, but either way it shows just how valuable Bonds is.
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Postby eftda » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:26 pm

How much is Tomko worth? :-o
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Postby kentx12 » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:29 pm

I will disagree with the numbers and go Pujols.
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Postby Mugrila » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:32 pm

i'd argue beltre (i mean come on, the dodgers in the post-season) but i think bonds once again has this one. he's just too dominant to not get it.
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Postby raiders_umpire » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:32 pm

Bonds, no doubt
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Postby thetongueofire » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:07 pm

why do we have to make this thread over and over again when its so frikkin obvious.... ;-D
[size=10]Manny Ramirez....$20 million
Pedro Martinez....$17.5 million
Curt Schilling...$12 million (and a $2 million bonus)
Never hearing a Yankee fan chant 1918 again...priceless. [/size]
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Postby mojowitt » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:13 pm

Okay, here's an arguement for Beltre. The MVP is supposed to go to the most valueable player, not necessarily the BEST player. So when looking at a player's value to his team, Beltre stacks up just as well if not better than Bonds. Lets look at the indivdual stats first:

Bonds Beltre

HR 43 48
RBI 101 121
Runs 129 104
OPS 1.422 1.017

Slight edge to Bonds, but not overwhelming. Now, lets see how much they meant to their team in terms of % of total team production. Bonds hit 23.4% of SF's Homers, scored 15.1% of their runs and had 12.5% of their RBI. In contrast, Beltre had 23.6% of LA's Homers, 13.6% of their runs and 16.%% of their RBIs. This shows that beltre was responsable for more of his team's production and had less "support". You can talk about Bonds' lack of opportunity, and its a valid excuse for his lower production than Beltre, but that doesnt translate to "value" when talking MVP. Beltre carried LA MORE than Barry carried SF. Since LA is in the post-season and would have been worse off than a Barryless SF, I'd give my vote to Beltre. Thats the best I can do as far as an arguement against the best hitter of all time...
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:22 pm

It's obvious why Bonds is the most valuable player because of how dangerous he makes the Giants but I'll play devil's advocate.

Adrian Beltre deserves as much consideration as Bonds this year. Beltre slugged 48 homeruns and drove in 121 RBIs with a .629 SLG%. Not only were his power numbers out of this world, but he batted .334 and achieved 200 hits. The Dodgers have been missing a big bat ever since Shawn Green mysteriously disappeared after the 2002 season. Adrian Beltre provided that bat, and without him, the Dodgers would not be in the playoffs, and might even be a 3rd place team.

The Dodgers lost ace Kevin Brown from their pitching staff and team leader Paul Lo Duca midseason. It can't be easy losing those two players and still gut it out to make playoffs in a tight NL West division. I also believe that Beltre made his teammates better. Shawn Green played very well in the 2nd half of this season, and other Dodger hitters stepped up this year such as Isturiz and Finley. Beltre made the Dodgers that much better and put them on top of the NL West. Bonds is extremely valuable to the success to the Giants, but San Fran didn't even make the postseason. And who were the Giants eliminated by? Adrian Beltre and his Dodgers. That's why I believe Beltre should recieve just as much MVP consideration as Bonds.
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