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My defense mechanism to opponents filling up on pitching.

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Postby davus » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:31 am

Baseballer02 wrote:
Danimal wrote:So churning is unethical? I disagree. I'm down two saves in my championship series and picked up Spier and Putz in hopes of picking up a save or two in the final four days. Is that unethical?



That's not unethical, but that's not churning.


Correct.
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Postby davus » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:41 am

great gretzky wrote:its not churning if you keep them on your roster.

I pick up players, especially pitchers to have on hand while I CONSIDER playing/dropping them.

There is a major difference. He isn't just picking up and dropping to exploit the waivers. You are allowed to pick up players to play "keep away" to some measure.

so if you were set at 1b and corner IF, say you have tex and helton, and someone dropped thome. do you let him sit there because you don't need him? no.

you are allowed to pick up the best options from the wire, even if you don't use them.


Nobody is saying that.

If you pick up a guy you don't have any use for and whom you aren't going to play just so another guy who can use him cannot have access to him, then you are churning. If you pick up Thome cause he was dropped you are adding depth to your team and very well could use him at some point.

It comes down to intellectual honesty. Nobody knows if you pick up Joe Kennedy because you really think he will be a valuable guy to help improve your team except for you. Picking up and dropping immediately is obvious, but you can also pick up and sit on him for a day or two and then drop and it is really the same thing.

What it really comes down to is this section of Yahoo rules (assuming this is a Yahoo league.).

No owner will make any roster moves (including waiver claims, trade proposals, etc.) whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners.


Let that be your guideline.
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Postby Baseballer02 » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:43 am

I wouldn't call it churning on my part. Even if I end up not starting Drese and Kennedy, both of them would have given me better chances to win my matchup had I decided to do so.
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Postby great gretzky » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:50 am

exactly. Hampering play is part of the process, stated rules or not. You can't leave useful talent for your opponent like that on the wire, you are under no obligation to do so.

As I understand it, churning is when you just add and drop so the waivers hinder someone else.

Hindering someone's play because you felt a roster spot was worth it is a differnet matter entirely.

With chruning, you are essentially legnthening your bench but exploiting the waiver time. Meaning that no one can pick up the players. In the other case you are most certianly free to pick up talent so your oppoent can't.

So fi a closer was on the wire, your opponent needed one, you didn't, you leave him ont he wire?

You are helping your team in this case, especially since your are directly affecting your standing in the league -- taking points away from your immediate oppoennt in the championship round.

I don't really think the rule is to be interpreted that you have to leave the tools to your own demise on the waiver wire. I think it is more against the real kind of chruning, where you plow through the FA list everyday. They are different scnearios.

And frankly, it is called the FREE agent list for a reason ...
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Postby Madison » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:55 am

This old debate again? :-/

"Quantity over quality" is not illegal, but not the way the game was meant to be played.

Leagues that don't have protection for those actions are stuck. Teams tend to "churn" to keep the other player from skirting the rules and exploiting a loophole in the system when they use "quantity over quality".

I've never held it against someone who "churns" to prevent someone else from using the "quantity over quality" tactic.

Neither of the situations are ethical, or the way the game was meant to be played. I'd suggest implementing rules that remove the loophole next year. Innings caps, transaction limits, ratios instead of countables, etc. Then neither tactic helps.
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Postby davus » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:07 pm

Baseballer02 wrote:I wouldn't call it churning on my part. Even if I end up not starting Drese and Kennedy, both of them would have given me better chances to win my matchup had I decided to do so.


If you really believe that, then your fine. I suspect, however, from what you are saying that in reality you are picking them up just so the other guy can't use them. It didn't sound as if you had any plans on using them until the other guy started picking up pitchers, so if you don't really use them really you are just doing it to hamper him from playing. If you use them, then you are just using his strategy which is well within the rules and any ethics.

Only you know what your purpose is, I'm not here to judge that.
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Postby davus » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:11 pm

great gretzky wrote:exactly. Hampering play is part of the process, stated rules or not. You can't leave useful talent for your opponent like that on the wire, you are under no obligation to do so.

As I understand it, churning is when you just add and drop so the waivers hinder someone else.

Hindering someone's play because you felt a roster spot was worth it is a differnet matter entirely.

With chruning, you are essentially legnthening your bench but exploiting the waiver time. Meaning that no one can pick up the players. In the other case you are most certianly free to pick up talent so your oppoent can't.

So fi a closer was on the wire, your opponent needed one, you didn't, you leave him ont he wire?

You are helping your team in this case, especially since your are directly affecting your standing in the league -- taking points away from your immediate oppoennt in the championship round.

I don't really think the rule is to be interpreted that you have to leave the tools to your own demise on the waiver wire. I think it is more against the real kind of chruning, where you plow through the FA list everyday. They are different scnearios.

And frankly, it is called the FREE agent list for a reason ...


IMO, the spirit of that rule is that you should't pick up a guy you don't need just so another team can't have him. You are allowed to have whatever depth on your bench that you like, so it's not like it's wrong to pick up a guy just in case you need him. If you're picking up guys with no intention of ever playing them, but just so another team can't use them, that is wrong IMO and violates that rule. You aren't improving your team, you are hurting another team. There IS a distinction.
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Postby great gretzky » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:43 pm

"and or its standing in the league" is also a rule yahoo puts forth. hampering others CAN improve your standing, and that is where the distinction goes.

Preventing your opponents from getting critical stats is part of the game. Real life teams do this all the time, in bidding players values up, trading them out of division, you name it.

The distinction comes in when you are carefully choosing you to pick up, versus blindly picking up anyone and everyone to keep them away from your opponents because they are on waivers.

Again, you don't have to die at your own hand because of some VERY DEBATEABLE interpretation of what is "helping your team"

If you are scheduled to play, say the twins and your team is scheduled to face santana, but for some reason he gets hurt or pushed back and faces another team? Did that help you or hurt the twins? Well it is both in reality.

Such is life with taking players from the wire that would prove useful to your opponent. The difference is you can allocate your roster space in any manner of your choosing. This is what that man is doing. However, churning as I understand it gets around the obstacle of a finite roster limit in order to have a "hold" so to speak of many more players than your roster allows.

Would it be unethical in a draft to pay attention to your comeptitors needs and draft guys you don't particularly need, just to keep them away from your oppoentns? not at all.

paying attention to your oppoennts and schedules starts etc is strategy. That person can still spot start, he just has a lesser choice now.

It does HELP your team by the way. Is there a difference between adding a point yourself or taking one away from your opponent? Not at all, the spread is still getting increased. By keeping the pitcher from the oppoenent, he is helping his team because he is increasing his margin in that cat.

I agree that regular churning is bad, but preemptively removing your options from your opponent is part of the game. After all, he is giving up something to do it -- roster spaces that could have been allocated differently. That is definitely contrasted to abusing a waiver rule that has the effect of giving your roster an unlimited bench -- as normally you would have to roster someone to keep them away from an opponent.
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Postby davus » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:59 pm

That's fine if you want to play that way. I'm just saying that you Yahoo probably would consider you in violation of the rules and if someone complained you might get a nasty-gram or even your account nuked.

I really don't read that rule as vaguely as you do. As stated many times before, the real issue is that you shouldn't have the option of picking up 15 sp a week and dropping them. There needs to be some safeguards in the league against that. As it is both heavy spot starting and churning/preemptive waiver moves are allowable by the tool, but only the latter puts you potentially in violation of Yahoo's written rules.

Incidentally, real life baseball and fantasy are obviously very different and I don't think MLB has any rule that says you can't pick up a guy you don't need and couldn't possibly want for any other reason than to prevent a competitor from getting him.
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:22 pm

davus wrote:That's fine if you want to play that way. I'm just saying that you Yahoo probably would consider you in violation of the rules and if someone complained you might get a nasty-gram or even your account nuked.


eMail them and ask.... if you're SOLE PURPOSE is not to harm another team, it's perfectly fine. Obviously if you're doing it so you win your H2H matchup, that's not for the SOLE PURPOSE of hampering somebody else.

That's for Yahoo public leagues though - I don't know many people who are in public leagues anymore. Private leagues have their own rules; if the commish was dumb enough to allow rotating multiple pitchers in and out every day, they might be dumb enough to allow churning (putting players on waivers so they can't be picked up).

Don't blame the people who exploit the rules, blame the people who left the rules exploitable.
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