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Postby lazyeye » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:37 am

ichro awsome great hitter
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Postby Kisor » Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:51 am

thetongueofire wrote:Ichiro is awesome but overrated.


How exactly is Ichiro overrated? Is his arm over rated? He's got a pretty good one...

Is his speed overrated? He's pretty dang fast...

Is his bat overrated? He hit .372, with 262 hits... and only got on base like.. what 315 (unfortunately due to an anemic offense behind him, only scored 101 times, could easily surpass 140-150 runs this year with Beltre and Sexson behind him) times this year? (Vlad Guerrero got on base something like 266 times, scored 124 runs)

How exactly is he overrated? I think he's rated as anyone can rate Ichiro.... comparable to none - except himself....

Ichiro is Ichiro, and however you rate an Ichiro caliber player(There's none other) Well then it's Ichiro lol....

Ichiro isn't overrated, Ichiro is just rated as any other Ichiro... (Except there's only one Ichiro)

I think i confuggled meself... :-?
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Postby squawkya24 » Wed May 04, 2005 1:22 pm

Ichiro is the man!!
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Postby quietstorm » Thu May 05, 2005 1:08 pm

I'm still trying to get over the dismantling of the old M's. I still miss Junior and Buhner. :(

And Ichiro is overrated. I can't believe the insane fans I come across who think Ichiro deserved the MVP last year. By the end of the season, he was almost ten runs behind Vlad in VORP. He didn't make other players better, either, and actually sarcrificed some of his value to go for singles. If he wasn't trying to break the record, I don't know what he was trying to do... I don't care if your team is out of contention, you don't ignore the needs of your team to get your bloody record.

(Oh, and until the last couple weeks, he wasn't ahead of Manny, Ortiz, Mora, Guillen, etc.)
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Postby KronJon » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:29 pm

thetongueofire wrote:anyways, lets look at some stats...

OBP- .414 (ML Rank- 14) hmmm... isnt getting on base what hes supposed to be the best at. ;-)
Slug.- .455 (ML Rank- 116).
OPS- .869 (ML Rank- 50).
WS-27 (ML Rank- 21).

less relevant, interesting stuff..
singles- 225 (ALL TIME Rank- 1st lol)
XBH's- 37 (ML Rank- 173).

i acknowledge that hes awesome and everything. hitting .374 in today's game is no joke BUT he's not one of the best players in the game. hes a very good player and i would love to have him on my team but when people start calling him one of the greatest, thats when he gets overrated. the "greatest" players dont have the 50th best OPS.

if i was building a franchise i'd just as easily have the all-time strikeout leader than the all-time hits leader when it comes to offensive production.




^^^This is complete foolishness.

If Ichiro hit .250 he would still be a great player. That is how good his defense is. He is the best defensive outfielder in baseball today. That's what matters the most. Oh ya, did I mention he is the best leadoff hitter in the history of baseball? Nobody is like him, and he is easily one of the best PLAYERS in the game. No, he's not one of the best SLUGGERS. But that's not what he is paid to do, and that's not what he tries to do. He tries to hit singles, and be nearly perfect on defense.... and he does his job better than anyone else.
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Postby SCRanger » Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:05 am

I would take Torri Hunter for Outfield Defense over Ichiro, or even Andruw Jones.

Best leadoff hitter? Hardley. The A's had some guy named Rickey Henderson. Might ring a bell. Second All time in BB (Bonds broke it last year, thanks to all the intential walks). First in Steals. First in Leadoff Homeruns. He did everything you want a leadoff hitter do. For him to be second in walks shows he was very patient at the plate. After all, you DON'T want to walk the ML All time leader in steals. That's just putting him on second.

Ichiro is good, but if I were to make a team of both players in their prime, I'm taking Rickey for leadoff spot. More Power, More Steals, More walks.
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Postby KronJon » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:30 pm

SCRanger wrote:Ichiro is good, but if I were to make a team of both players in their prime, I'm taking Rickey for leadoff spot. More Power, More Steals, More walks.



More Power? Rickey has a career SLG% of .419. Ichiro's career SLG% is .441, indicating that he has more power.

Ichiro is also a career .335 hitter.
Rickey's career average is only .279. Not too good.

As for OBP.. Rickey has it at .401
But Ichiro is not too far behind with an OBP of .380.


Rickey also played in a different era, and he was on a better team. In today's game people don't steal 130 bases. And Ichiro has been in a lineup of scrubs. Imagine how many runs Ichiro would have scored last year if he had the Bash Brothers hitting behind him? I mean come on, he had 262 hits.
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Postby SCRanger » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:12 am

SLG% isn't necassarily power, as doubles and triples are counted in that. Ichiro's speed (which I believe he is probably faster then Rickey) allows for him to run out doubles and triples as needed.

When I say power, I am refering to leaving the park. Ichiro is most certainly better for doubles and triples, but homerun power falls to Rickey. 297 career homeruns is nothing to bat an eye at.

Rickey's HR % of hits is 9.72%
Ichiro's HR % of hits is 4.09%

Rickey is more then double in % of his hits being homeruns. Also look at the K/BB ratio.

Rickey 1/1.29
Ichiro 1.34/1

Next, stealing %.

Rickey supports a 80.76% life time steal success.
Ichiro supports as 76.89% life time steal success.

Yes, SB were a bit more prevelant in Rickey's day in age, but there are still people swiping 70+ bases in a year. Regardless of how different baseball is now, Ichiro most likely still wouldn't have out stolen Rickey. Stealing bases has a science. Its not always about speed. Its about reading the pitcher.

Sure, Rickey had guys to drive him in, but I'm not arguing that. I'm merely talking about getting their job done. If the guys behind the leadoff hitter aren't doing their jobs, not much can be done about that.

Raising your OBP isn't easy. The only way that is going to happen is for Ichiro to take more walks. Sure he gets lots of hits, but he needs a lot more walks to get that OBP up there. Just look at Adam Dunn or Delluci this year. They have like a full .160 points more in OBP then their average, and it is due to how much those two walk.

But bottom line, Rickey is the better lead off hitter.
Rickey>Ichiro in K/BB ratio
Rickey>Ichiro in SB% success
Rickey>Ichiro in OBP
Rickey>Ichiro in HR to H%
Ichiro>Rickey in SLG%
Ichiro>Rickey in AVG
Rickey>Ichiro in average SB per year
Ichiro>Rickey lifetime AVG

Edit: I had K : B which resulted in K:B when close together. Switched it to K/B
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:47 am

KronJon wrote:^^^This is complete foolishness.

If Ichiro hit .250 he would still be a great player. That is how good his defense is. He is the best defensive outfielder in baseball today. That's what matters the most. Oh ya, did I mention he is the best leadoff hitter in the history of baseball? Nobody is like him, and he is easily one of the best PLAYERS in the game. No, he's not one of the best SLUGGERS. But that's not what he is paid to do, and that's not what he tries to do. He tries to hit singles, and be nearly perfect on defense.... and he does his job better than anyone else.


If Ichiro hits 250, he's far from a great player. Defense isn't close to offense in RF, a power position. And btw, Ichiro isn't really close to Rickey as far as best leadoff hitter ever. Let's compare Win Shares.

Ichiros 4 years so far
36/25/23/27 = 111 in 4 years/27.75

Rickeys best 3
39/38/34
His best 5 =152/30.4.

Rickey in his prime was far better, and career wise is no contest since 4 years compared to 22 years.

Ichiro is a good player, but he's overrated do to people's misguided faith in only BA. Ichiro rarely walks, and has little pop. Like was stated, a OPS not in the top 25, leaves room to grow. Ichiro won the mvp in 01, but Giambi was the easy winner, and i'm a Seattle fan.
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Postby KronJon » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:42 pm

I don't think Ichiro should have won it either.

Boone should have.
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