Is Bonds pretty much a lock to break Aaron's record? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Is Bonds pretty much a lock to break Aaron's record?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby Lofunzo » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:38 pm

thetongueofire wrote:in other words, Bonds at his best is better than Ruth (or anyone else) at his best.


The only thing that I can say about Bonds that is better than Ruth is that he has gotten remarkably better at an advanced age. After that, I think that Ruth is definitely better. I also question whether Bonds at his best is better than Ruth at his best. First off, there is the fact that Ruth outhomered entire teams. That, in itself, is impressive. Forgetting about that, let's look at career Win Shares. Before this season started, Ruth had 8399 AB and 756 WS. Bonds had 8725 AB and 611 WS. So, in 326 less AB, Ruth had 19% more WS. Now, looking at their top 3 seasons, Ruth is better there as well:

Ruth's top 3 were 55, 53, and 51. Bonds' top 3 were 54, 49*, and 47.
*Current season

I would have rather not turned this into a Bonds vs. Ruth thread again but you brought it up. Ruth is without question the best slugger of his time. Up until a few years ago, Bonds wasn't even the best of his time. That went to Griffey and then A-Rod. While I admit that Bonds has has all-time seasons lately, I don't see how a 4-5 year span can vault someone from not being the best of their era to now being considered the best ever. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Image
Lofunzo
Moderator
Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe RankerEagle EyeHockey ModPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 23698
(Past Year: 11)
Joined: 9 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Central Jersey

Postby thetongueofire » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:19 pm

Lo, i think i agreed that Ruth is the better overall offensive player until now but Bonds's career is far from over (if he wants it that way... ). its likely it'll stay that way but two-three more years by Bonds on the level of his previous years...

and i also believe that Bonds has had to face a lot better competition and thats why he or anyone from the modern era has a edge in my mind over any of the prehistoric players... ;-D

as for the 3 best seasons, i think Babe Ruth had significantly more PT than Bonds. can you look up their WSP ??? I know Bonds has a significantly better OPS for the past four seasons (including this one) than Ruth had in any 4 of his seasons combined. ;-D

its pointless comparing guys from different times anyways, cos you can never come to a clear conclusion. sorry if i went off on a tangent and sidetracked the thread but main point is Babe Ruth and old players are overrated.
[size=10]Manny Ramirez....$20 million
Pedro Martinez....$17.5 million
Curt Schilling...$12 million (and a $2 million bonus)
Never hearing a Yankee fan chant 1918 again...priceless. [/size]
thetongueofire
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 3622
Joined: 8 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Lofunzo » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:32 pm

Some older players are overvalued but I don't think that is the case with Ruth. IMHO, it is the other way around in this instance. We tend to remember and overvalue what we see and since Bonds is front and center right now, that plays a big part in it. :-?

What do you mean by WSP??

As for OPS, you are correct in that Bonds best 3 seasons are better than Ruth's. Bonds' are 1.437*, 1.381, and 1.379 while Ruth's are 1.379, 1.358, and 1.309.
Image
Lofunzo
Moderator
Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe RankerEagle EyeHockey ModPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 23698
(Past Year: 11)
Joined: 9 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Central Jersey

Postby thetongueofire » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:53 pm

Lofunzo wrote:Some older players are overvalued but I don't think that is the case with Ruth. IMHO, it is the other way around in this instance. We tend to remember and overvalue what we see and since Bonds is front and center right now, that plays a big part in it.


i think could be right but it all depends on the specific guy and situation... i dont think that Bonds is overrated cos theres just way too many "bonds-haters" outside of SF and Ruth has one of the greatest and most hyped up "legacies". just dunno since its all other people's perceptions... but statistically i think a lot of old players are given too much credit considering they had to face such diminished competition.
[size=10]Manny Ramirez....$20 million
Pedro Martinez....$17.5 million
Curt Schilling...$12 million (and a $2 million bonus)
Never hearing a Yankee fan chant 1918 again...priceless. [/size]
thetongueofire
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 3622
Joined: 8 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby thetongueofire » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:54 pm

WSP is wins shares percent, which measures the player's contribution, given his PT. the math is think is WS/(2*ExpWS). but i dunno where to look up WSP for old players or even ExpWS (WS an everage guy would get given that PT). :-)
[size=10]Manny Ramirez....$20 million
Pedro Martinez....$17.5 million
Curt Schilling...$12 million (and a $2 million bonus)
Never hearing a Yankee fan chant 1918 again...priceless. [/size]
thetongueofire
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 3622
Joined: 8 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby shortsavage » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:45 pm

This post got heated 8-o .

For the record, Aaron has given Bonds the go-ahead to pass him on the homerun charts and Bonds intends to do so. It should also be noted that at this stage of his career Bonds is as focused on his team winning a World Series as his is on anything. He is a team player that wants to win.
Mike Pelfrey > Matt Garza
shortsavage
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterWeb Supporter
Posts: 2946
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: UC Davis

Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:51 pm

shortsavage wrote:This post got heated 8-o .

For the record, Aaron has given Bonds the go-ahead to pass him on the homerun charts and Bonds intends to do so. It should also be noted that at this stage of his career Bonds is as focused on his team winning a World Series as his is on anything. He is a team player that wants to win.


I know most people will take this the wrong way, but my response is: "Why doesn't he take a pay cut so they can surround him with talent to win that title? :-?$18 million would go a long way towards winning a title. You could have Schmidt, Pudge, and Rolen for $18 million dollars.
Image
Member #4 of the Inaugural Yadier Molina Fan Club!!!
SaintsOfTheDiamond
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

Fantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe Ranker
Posts: 6480
Joined: 6 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Swiping second

Postby LBJackal » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:56 pm

SaintsOfTheDiamond wrote:
shortsavage wrote:This post got heated 8-o .

For the record, Aaron has given Bonds the go-ahead to pass him on the homerun charts and Bonds intends to do so. It should also be noted that at this stage of his career Bonds is as focused on his team winning a World Series as his is on anything. He is a team player that wants to win.


I know most people will take this the wrong way, but my response is: "Why doesn't he take a pay cut so they can surround him with talent to win that title? :-?


Same can be said of every player...... he earns the money he gets, so why shouldn't he take it? Why don't you tell your boss to keep half your check so the company can prosper? Also, he's not ALLOWED to take a pay cut. That might be part of it ;-)

I swear, people will find something wrong in everything Barry does or says, no wonder he's given up on preserving his image.....
Image

"Jack, will you call me, if you're able?"

"I've got your phone number written, in the back of my Bible."
LBJackal
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 9196
Joined: 1 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Hotel Yorba

Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:02 pm

If I had made the kind of money he made over the course of his career, and winning a WS was really the most important thing to me, I'd play for nothing or whatever it takes if that helped the team get me what I truly wanted. That's all. I'm not saying it just about Bonds. Look at Malone with the Lakers, to me that says a title was the most important thing to him and he was willing to take a significant pay cut to get that championship. It may be apples and oranges, but I just don't believe it when any athlete says winning is the most important thing then they take the money and go where they have no chance. It wasn't directed at Bonds, just pro athletes in general I guess.
Last edited by SaintsOfTheDiamond on Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Member #4 of the Inaugural Yadier Molina Fan Club!!!
SaintsOfTheDiamond
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

Fantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe Ranker
Posts: 6480
Joined: 6 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Swiping second

Postby shortsavage » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:03 pm

Prior to the start of this season, Bonds said that he would be willing to take a pay cut if the Giants went after a bat to protect him, but the player's union would not allow such an occurrence. Why do you think Alex Rodriguez is playing in pinstripes rather than in Bean Town?

You are not familiar with agents either, are you?
Mike Pelfrey > Matt Garza
shortsavage
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterWeb Supporter
Posts: 2946
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: UC Davis

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Tuesday, Oct. 21
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

San Francisco at Kansas City
(8:07 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact