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Any doubt on AL Cy Young?

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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:54 pm

Fpower wrote:Another reason that Ks are good is because the ball is never put into play. Whenever the ball's put into play, even if it was a good pitch, the play become's dependent on the defense's ability (or lackthereof) to complete the play. Almost no chance for errors on strikeouts.


Unless the catcher misses strike three. :D That is the only reason I value strikeouts at all, they eliminate the possibility for hits, errors, homeruns, etc.
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Postby Tavish » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:54 pm

LBJackal wrote:
bleach168 wrote:
LBJackal wrote:Wins should be irrelevant


Maybe they should be irrelevant, but they are not. They are a major factor in the decision for Cy Young.


Exactly........ they shouldn't matter, just like K's, but the voters don't neccesarily vote for who SHOULD win, they vote for who they WANT to win. Sometimes hometown pitchers sway voters, pitchers with charisma can too, same with pitchers who have been good over a longer period of time, pitchers who are more pwoerful, etc. But in real baseball, allowing ER is all that matters.


Eh? Just like how many runs you score is all that matters evaluating an offensive player? :-?

K's are often overrated when judging a pitcher's performance, but they, along with WHIP and pitcher OBP/SLG, are valuable tools. Runs Allowed is the most important guage but it is not the end all and be all. It is still an end result statistic in the same mold as wins. Its not as team dependant as wins but still team dependant.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:56 pm

Fpower wrote:Another reason that Ks are good is because the ball is never put into play. Whenever the ball's put into play, even if it was a good pitch, the play become's dependent on the defense's ability (or lackthereof) to complete the play. Almost no chance for errors on strikeouts.


I've considered that too, and it would be a valid point if it were true, but I've looked at many pitchers, and those who have lots of K's tend to allow more unearned runs than those that don't get a lot of K's.

Maybe it's because the balls they allow to be put into play are hit harder (K pitchers generally throw harder than non-K pitchers), or because they generally go deeper into counts and are in more situations where they are inclined to throw a fastball down the middle (easy to hit those hard). So I don't know WHY, but I know that pitchers with more K's tend to allow mroe UERs.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:00 pm

Tavish wrote:
LBJackal wrote:
bleach168 wrote:
LBJackal wrote:Wins should be irrelevant


Maybe they should be irrelevant, but they are not. They are a major factor in the decision for Cy Young.


Exactly........ they shouldn't matter, just like K's, but the voters don't neccesarily vote for who SHOULD win, they vote for who they WANT to win. Sometimes hometown pitchers sway voters, pitchers with charisma can too, same with pitchers who have been good over a longer period of time, pitchers who are more pwoerful, etc. But in real baseball, allowing ER is all that matters.


Eh? Just like how many runs you score is all that matters evaluating an offensive player? :-?

K's are often overrated when judging a pitcher's performance, but they, along with WHIP and pitcher OBP/SLG, are valuable tools. Runs Allowed is the most important guage but it is not the end all and be all. It is still an end result statistic in the same mold as wins. Its not as team dependant as wins but still team dependant.


Hitting is entirely different. There are 9 hitters on a team trying to score runs as a team. Simple stats like R and RBI don't tell the whole story because they can help the team without physically scoring a run or hitting somebody home. They also play defense, which is another factor to take into consideration. Pitchers are alone on the mound, and are 99.9% responsible for the ER's they give up.

K's don't matter, WHIP doesn't matter, walks don't matter. ER's matter.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 pm

If you don't believe me you can talk to HOOTIE about it........ I don't know his stance, btu since he knows what he's talking about mroe than any other staheads here, I assume he'll agree with me that K's and walks, and whatever other peripheral stats you want to talk about are meaningless when judging past performance.
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Postby Baseballer02 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:06 pm

Well it seems to me that the more K's you have, and the lower the WHIP you have, the less pressure you're putting on your defense, which mean less chances for errors. If you have two pitchers with identical stats, whomever is the one with more K's and a lower WHIP is the one who has been more valuable to his team, IMO.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:10 pm

Baseballer02 wrote:Well it seems to me that the more K's you have, and the lower the WHIP you have, the less pressure you're putting on your defense, which mean less chances for errors. If you have two pitchers with identical stats, whomever is the one with more K's and a lower WHIP is the one who has been more valuable to his team, IMO.


Maybe you missed my post about this from a few minutes earlier, but more K's usually leads to more unearned runs. So that theory that the defense is in an easier position doens't really hold much water. They're actually in a harder position when a pitcher with lots of K's is on the mound.
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Postby Baseballer02 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:16 pm

LBJackal wrote:
Baseballer02 wrote:Well it seems to me that the more K's you have, and the lower the WHIP you have, the less pressure you're putting on your defense, which mean less chances for errors. If you have two pitchers with identical stats, whomever is the one with more K's and a lower WHIP is the one who has been more valuable to his team, IMO.


Maybe you missed my post about this from a few minutes earlier, but more K's usually leads to more unearned runs. So that theory that the defense is in an easier position doens't really hold much water. They're actually in a harder position when a pitcher with lots of K's is on the mound.
\

That may be somewhat true, but how much of a difference in unearned runs do you think there could possibly be? I'm sure there's a few examples the will prove your point true, but I'm sure there's just as many exceptions also. I really don't feel like looking up the specifics at the moment, but I do know that Santana has given up more UER than Schilling, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. The fact still remains, however, the lower the amount of times the ball is in play, the lower the amount of pressure there is on your defense.
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Postby Fpower » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:17 pm

Do you have a link to stats that back up strikeouts leading to more unearned runs? Because I find that completely counter-intuitive.
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Postby Tavish » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:20 pm

Maybe you missed my post about this from a few minutes earlier, but more K's usually leads to more unearned runs. So that theory that the defense is in an easier position doens't really hold much water. They're actually in a harder position when a pitcher with lots of K's is on the mound.


I would be interested to see any type of solid numbers behind pitchers giving up more unearned runs because they are strikeout pitchers.
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