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Defending against teams using spot starters every day.

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Postby josebach » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:43 pm

LBJackal wrote:
josebach wrote:
LBJackal wrote:
Apex wrote:Not to belabor the point, but can you give me an example of a roster move (other than churning players) that would be intended strictly to hamper the play of another owner? If not, then what would you consider the intent of that rule?


In a H2H league, some guy beats you by picking up lots of SP's, and after you're eliminated you churn pitchers so he loses. No gain to you, only harm to him.


Ok, the rule we're arguing is "No owner will make any roster moves (including waiver claims, trade proposals, etc.) whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners."

By your logic, your explanation is wrong. By hurting one team, aren't you also helping the team that's playing them? Isn't helping the team that's playing them a purpose?


Yep, it's a purpose - to help somebody elses team. Unfortunately, that breaks rule #1, "All league-related transactions will be executed with the intent of improving the owner's team and/or its standing within the league." So I'm still right :-]

Churning pitchers so they hit waivers breaks none of the rules if your intent is to help your own team.


We're not talking about rule #1. What is the intent of the rule "No owner will make any roster moves (including waiver claims, trade proposals, etc.) whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners." if it's not to stop churning? Somebody's dodging the question. ;-)
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Postby TonyCee » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:06 pm

Plain and Simple, Churning players is illegal and unethical.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:17 pm

The rule (theoretically) stops people from intentionally hurting teams that they don't like, such as revenge for beating them. Your sole purpose would be to hurt the team you don't like. The team he's against benefits, but that is a by-product of hurting the team you dislike, not a purpose. And I say theoretically because whose to say that the guy's purpose wasn't to help the team that his "enemy" is playing. But that's why they have the "no collusion" rule. I should have said that in my last post, but I guess I thought breaking one rule was enough to say it's not a valid tactic. But if it makes you happy, your example of somebody churning pitchers in order to hamper the play of another owner and not help his own team violates both rules #1 and #4. If the owner argues that his sole purpose wasn't to hurt the other team it was to help the team his enemy is facing (this was not in your original scenario, but it's a similar scenario), then it breaks rules #1 and #3.

Any more questions?
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Postby Fpower » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:11 pm

I think Jackal makes a good point, and I agree with him that yahoo probably made the rule to prevent people from hurting other teams for no other purpose than "revenge", or "i don't like that guy". In public leagues, players often pout and act in a petty fashion (such as dropping all their players because they're upset that their trade was vetoed)

If churning helps your own team, I believe it is legal.

If churning does not help your own team, but only hinders someone else, I believe that is illegal.
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Postby TonyCee » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:19 pm

My biggest question in all of this is: You are trying to stop one team from picking up players everyday and spot starting them but what about the other owners who actually NEED to pick-up these players and use them, aren't you hindering them from doing that? That isn't fair to them at all.
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:14 am

Yep, you might be hindering them. But your goal is to help your team. I don't agree with doing it, since it ruins the fun of the game, but so does adding 5 SP's per day. Neither SHOULD be allowed in any credible league, but both ARE allowed in public Yahoo leagues.
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Postby ukrneal » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:35 am

The easiesy way to stop spot starting or churning or whatever is to establish transaction limits and/or play with a group of like-minded owners.

I have a question on terminology. I always thought that people who spot started a lot was churning, but you all refer to it as picking and dropping w/o using (I would actually use the term churning for both as I feel that both are against the spirit of the rules and the way the game should be played). So what is the term for regular spot starting?

I always uesd Spot Starting to mean the OCCASSIONAL use of a starter from the FA, not a regular, daily turnover of pitchers. What term can you use to differentiate spot starting from regular spot starting? Is there a term?
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:20 am

When people pick up a bunch of SP's every day so you win by quantity, I used to call that churning. But everybody here calls sending pitchers who start the next day on waivers by add/dropping them churning. I don't know which term goes with which strategy.
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Postby Chopper » Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:00 am

I think the conventional definitions for this forum were somewhat agreed upon in this thread:
http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=60510.

matmat wrote:churning is the practice of pretty much continuously picking up players for the sole purpose of immediately dropping them to place them on waivers and make them inaccessible to other managers. Mind you, picking up players and using them in your lineup for a start and then dropping is spot starting, but not churning... also, you are entitled to change your mind in that you can pick someone up and drop them immediately as long as this was done "in good faith" and not for the purpose of preventing someone else from getting that player.
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Postby ukrneal » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:18 am

Chopper - I was at that one too and I never agreed with their definitions, though I don;t think I said anything at the time. Even here, there are two of us using the word 'churn' to mean constant spot starting. I can't use the term spot starting when someone is doing it every day. A spot start, by definition, means occasssional. If you go to the M-W dictionary and look up the adjective 'spot', the definition that applies is as follows:

"e : performing occasionally when needed <chance of making the... varsity as a spot starter and relief pitcher -- N. Y. Times>"

They even have an example that clearly applies to baseball! So you see, someone who uses 3 FA pitchers a day everyday can't be using spot starters, they are using a regular strategy (which many here don't permit or block through the rules or get irritated when it is used) and should be called something else.
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