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Defending against teams using spot starters every day.

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Postby Thats NOT Snowflake » Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:03 pm

In a way . . . churning could also be considered part of the game.

I'm sure the Yankees and Red Sox have signed a few players just so that the other team doesn't get them. Contreras comes to mind. Boston wasn't too happy when they lost out on Jose.
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Postby Madison » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:10 pm

LBJackal wrote:People like me? You mean people who interpret the rules objectionably instead of in a manner that they think should be the rules? I'm not saying I condone doing it, I'm saying it's allowed to be done. I would never allow it in my league.

If you churn pitchers, you intend to make an opponent have lesser stats, ie: close the gap between you two, giving you a batter chance to win. Any way you can do that is within the rules, according to Yahoo.

"No owner will make any roster moves ... whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners."

Now is your sole purpose in churning to hamper somebody elses play? No. Your purpose is to help your team. eMail Yahoo if you want them to tell you that. I guess you guys define "sole purpose" creatively. Because when my purpose is to increase my standing in the league, and I use a tactic that accomplishes that purpose, I find it hard to believe that somebody can say my SOLE PURPOSE was to hamper somebody elses play when clearly it wasn't.


What a few people are trying to get at Jackal, is that not one single owner picks up a player and immediately drops them thinking "this will improve my team". They are all thinking "this will stop so-and-so from spot starting this guy". Any honest churners (what an oxymoron huh? honest churner. lol. :-b ) will agree with that. Churning is basically like having a bench the size of the free agent pool since the stats for the churned players cannot be credited to any team. Clearly against the rules. B-)

Now while I find "quantity over quality" as a terrible practice and the result of a flawed league, I have never held churning against someone, and I still don't. I consider both to not be the way the game was intended to be played. I simply suggest that they don't sink to their opponent's level and make sure the loophole is closed the following year. :-)
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Postby Bloody Nipples » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:06 am

Bloody Nipples wrote:be care with KC, though. They have scored 26 and now 17 runs in games in the last week. They are bad, but they can also explode for some serious scoring. If you want to take advantage of that, though, start somebody against them the day after an explosion, cause they most likely will not do it again. Mussina is going today, and I am very confident in him for this game.


I would just like to point out that I was right. :-D

And churning is illegal.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:41 am

Madison wrote:
LBJackal wrote:People like me? You mean people who interpret the rules objectionably instead of in a manner that they think should be the rules? I'm not saying I condone doing it, I'm saying it's allowed to be done. I would never allow it in my league.

If you churn pitchers, you intend to make an opponent have lesser stats, ie: close the gap between you two, giving you a batter chance to win. Any way you can do that is within the rules, according to Yahoo.

"No owner will make any roster moves ... whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners."

Now is your sole purpose in churning to hamper somebody elses play? No. Your purpose is to help your team. eMail Yahoo if you want them to tell you that. I guess you guys define "sole purpose" creatively. Because when my purpose is to increase my standing in the league, and I use a tactic that accomplishes that purpose, I find it hard to believe that somebody can say my SOLE PURPOSE was to hamper somebody elses play when clearly it wasn't.


What a few people are trying to get at Jackal, is that not one single owner picks up a player and immediately drops them thinking "this will improve my team". They are all thinking "this will stop so-and-so from spot starting this guy". Any honest churners (what an oxymoron huh? honest churner. lol. :-b ) will agree with that. Churning is basically like having a bench the size of the free agent pool since the stats for the churned players cannot be credited to any team. Clearly against the rules. B-)

Now while I find "quantity over quality" as a terrible practice and the result of a flawed league, I have never held churning against someone, and I still don't. I consider both to not be the way the game was intended to be played. I simply suggest that they don't sink to their opponent's level and make sure the loophole is closed the following year. :-)


Yes I understand what people are getting at. But hurting somebody elses team accomplishes the goal of improving your team's position in the league. Therfore, the sole purpose is NOT to hurt somenody else, it's to help yourself. I guess you can define it however you want, but I don't see how the sole purpose is to hurt another team when quite obviously your purpose is to help your own team, or else you wouldn't be doing it in the first place. Lots of poeple might not like it...... but it's allowed by Yahoo. Not saying it should be, but by their rules, it's allowed as long as your purpose is to increase your team's chances of winning.

I don't know if this will ever be agreed by either side until "sole purpose" is defined. If your purpose is to help your team indirectly, does that mean your sole purpose is to hurt another team :-? Do you have to help your team DIRECTLY in order for it to be OK? I don't see anything in the rules saying otherwise, so I assume no.
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Postby josebach » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:01 am

LBJackal wrote:
Apex wrote:Not to belabor the point, but can you give me an example of a roster move (other than churning players) that would be intended strictly to hamper the play of another owner? If not, then what would you consider the intent of that rule?


In a H2H league, some guy beats you by picking up lots of SP's, and after you're eliminated you churn pitchers so he loses. No gain to you, only harm to him.


Ok, the rule we're arguing is "No owner will make any roster moves (including waiver claims, trade proposals, etc.) whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners."

By your logic, your explanation is wrong. By hurting one team, aren't you also helping the team that's playing them? Isn't helping the team that's playing them a purpose?

So, once again, if we're wrong and you're right, what is the intent of the rule? Your initial answer was wrong. :-b
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Postby great gretzky » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00 am

i still contend that the effect is like "deleting" a player, in that he isn't avialable for anyone to use -- no one is getting any positive or negative stats for him. its using a "process" method, a loophole if you will. It isn;t quite the same as taking a closer you don't need from the wire and holding him. you are taking a whole pool of players and making them unavailable.

I would also say that the PRIMARY reason is to deny, not to help. The denial happens BEFORE you are helped. It is a very cause and effect scenario, and pretty linar. Yes, I think you could say the "primary" or "first" purpose is denial, then your "help". So I would sya the rule si quite clear.

the thing is, you aren't just hurting the opponent at hand, you are denying those players to EVERYONE -- and sicne it effects everyone else (pretty equally I would add), it is pretty hard to defend.
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Postby RayD » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:31 am

As long as there's been Internet fantasy baseball, there's been churning. And it's frustrating, because I don't think it would be all that hard for a programmer to eliminate the problem.

Churning is when you pick up a player and drop them almost immediately, killing their free agent status for a couple days. So all a programmer has to do is fix things so that if an owner dumps a player after having picked them up less than 24 hours before, then that player returns directly to FA status without passing through waivers.

Otherwise we're stuck with a churning "honor system," and why should we have that when we can just have a program that works properly?
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Postby The Thrill » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:49 am

Bloody Nipples wrote:
Bloody Nipples wrote:be care with KC, though. They have scored 26 and now 17 runs in games in the last week. They are bad, but they can also explode for some serious scoring. If you want to take advantage of that, though, start somebody against them the day after an explosion, cause they most likely will not do it again. Mussina is going today, and I am very confident in him for this game.


I would just like to point out that I was right. :-D

And churning is illegal.



LOL. Nice aside! ;-D
Agree. ;-D
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Postby great gretzky » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:23 am

I agree, a pickup and drop in the same 24 hour period should not make a player go to waivers.

or conversely, anyone who isn;t on a "can't cut list" or something, should not go to waivers at all, but back to the fa pool.

I like the first way better though.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:01 pm

josebach wrote:
LBJackal wrote:
Apex wrote:Not to belabor the point, but can you give me an example of a roster move (other than churning players) that would be intended strictly to hamper the play of another owner? If not, then what would you consider the intent of that rule?


In a H2H league, some guy beats you by picking up lots of SP's, and after you're eliminated you churn pitchers so he loses. No gain to you, only harm to him.


Ok, the rule we're arguing is "No owner will make any roster moves (including waiver claims, trade proposals, etc.) whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners."

By your logic, your explanation is wrong. By hurting one team, aren't you also helping the team that's playing them? Isn't helping the team that's playing them a purpose?


Yep, it's a purpose - to help somebody elses team. Unfortunately, that breaks rule #1, "All league-related transactions will be executed with the intent of improving the owner's team and/or its standing within the league." So I'm still right :-]

Churning pitchers so they hit waivers breaks none of the rules if your intent is to help your own team.
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