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Defending against teams using spot starters every day.

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Postby josebach » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:43 pm

Next season we are going to require a player be held for two weeks after they are added before they are allowed to be dropped. I think this will keep everyone honest without having to limit innings pitched.
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Postby Apex » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:54 pm

josebach wrote:Next season we are going to require a player be held for two weeks after they are added before they are allowed to be dropped. I think this will keep everyone honest without having to limit innings pitched.

I like this idea! It will still be a bear to police, but it might be a solution to the perceived problems we have in our league.
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Postby George_Foreman » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:55 pm

bah. IP limits are much fairer. That type of rule is arbitrary and screws players who want to do completely legitimate things. Say I pick up a guy who just became a closer, and then he gets hurt. But my DL is full, and now I'm stuck with deadweight on my team for the next two weeks.

Or better yet, they name the new closer, but I can't pick him up and so someone else does.

I don't like "have to hold" rules at all. But then again, I have been known to spot start on occasion. ;-)
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Postby josebach » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:23 pm

George_Foreman wrote:bah. IP limits are much fairer. That type of rule is arbitrary and screws players who want to do completely legitimate things. Say I pick up a guy who just became a closer, and then he gets hurt. But my DL is full, and now I'm stuck with deadweight on my team for the next two weeks.

Or better yet, they name the new closer, but I can't pick him up and so someone else does.

I don't like "have to hold" rules at all. But then again, I have been known to spot start on occasion. ;-)


Actually, we already discussed the DL issue. If a player goes on the DL, we won't enforce the two week rule.

Oh, and Apex, it won't be a bear to police at all. The entire league will be enforcing the rule automatically against whoever they are playing. Think about it, if your opponent drops one pitcher for another, don't you think you'll look back a couple weeks to make sure the move was legit? If by chance, someone screws up and drop a pitcher prematurely, the commissioner has the power to undo the move.

Our league decided on this strategy because nobody wanted an innings pitched limit. We want to be able to sacrifice an offensive bench player for an extra starter if we so desire, but we don't want to lose in the playoffs because one teams pitchers happened to go deeper into games. Think about it. If my starters averaged 7 innings per game and my opponents averaged 5 1/2, should I be penalized at the end of the season because of it?
Last edited by josebach on Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:25 pm

Apex wrote:
LBJackal wrote:It's sole purpose is not to hamper the play of others, it's to improve your standing in the league.

This is an extremely contentious point, and people are very polarized on the issue, but I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion that the sole purpose in "churning" pitchers, without starting them or using them in any way, is anything other than hampering the play of others. As distasteful as one may consider spot starting, there is nothing within the rules, nor is there anything that can be interpreted in the rules of Yahoo public leagues that prevents it. The same can't be said of this practice.


Wrong. If you churn pitchers so others can't start them, your purpose is to make your team higher in the standings right? So it doesn't matter if it's DIRECT, but your purpose, INDIRECTLY, is to help your own team.

I'm not saying this is a good tactic, since I find it as annoying as people adding 5 SP's per day, but both are annoying and legal in Yahoo leagues. In private leagues there should be rules in place so neither can occur. If you're in a league where adding 5 SP's per day, or someting like that, then find a new league or get the commish to change the rules. It's not fun if teams win/lose by quantity instead of quality.
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Postby Apex » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:34 pm

LBJackal wrote:Wrong. If you churn pitchers so others can't start them, your purpose is to make your team higher in the standings right? So it doesn't matter if it's DIRECT, but your purpose, INDIRECTLY, is to help your own team.

Not to belabor the point, but can you give me an example of a roster move (other than churning players) that would be intended strictly to hamper the play of another owner? If not, then what would you consider the intent of that rule?
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Postby great gretzky » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:35 pm

yes the purpose is to make your team higher in the standings. but you aren't using statistics to do it -- which is the spirt of fantasy baseball. You are using a process method, rather than a statistical method of acheiving the goal. Or if you prefer, a lack of stats rather than use of stats. basically, this strategy is eliminating stats from the statistical universe of the league. if you churned the whole wire every day (or every time the waivers ended), the effect would be that of deleting the wire. Say you could delete the wire, would this be an ethical tactic?

notice the difference between this, and submaring someone in roto.

You may take an unequal trade to indirectly help your team by having team b catch c, which helps you.

But stats are proactively being counted and aren't "wiped from existence" like they are in churning.

that is why I said the first aim of churning is prevention IN THE ABSOLOUTE sense. Thuis isn't a stragey per se, but a nuke on the player universe avaiable to the league.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:39 pm

Apex wrote:
LBJackal wrote:Wrong. If you churn pitchers so others can't start them, your purpose is to make your team higher in the standings right? So it doesn't matter if it's DIRECT, but your purpose, INDIRECTLY, is to help your own team.

Not to belabor the point, but can you give me an example of a roster move (other than churning players) that would be intended strictly to hamper the play of another owner? If not, then what would you consider the intent of that rule?


In a H2H league, some guy beats you by picking up lots of SP's, and after you're eliminated you churn pitchers so he loses. No gain to you, only harm to him.

Basically any time you add/drop players jsut so taht somebody else gets worse in the standings while your position is intended to stay the same. That's wrong, since you're not trying to help your team's standing within the league.
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Postby josebach » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:48 pm

LBJackal wrote:In a H2H league, some guy beats you by picking up lots of SP's, and after you're eliminated you churn pitchers so he loses. No gain to you, only harm to him.


Come on now. You know that's not why the rule was put into place. If you pick up a player without the intention of playing him, you're churning... PERIOD!!!

Fortunately, we don't have anybody so unreasonable as LBJackal in our league. If you happen to, though, the solution is simple. Have the league vote as to what the intention of the rule is.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that LBJackal's strategy is designed to counter annoying spot starters. Unfortunately, spot starting isn't illegal and churning is. Make sure all rules are decided before the season starts. That's why we are discussing the two week rule now so this kind of thing doesn't happen next year.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:03 pm

josebach wrote:
LBJackal wrote:In a H2H league, some guy beats you by picking up lots of SP's, and after you're eliminated you churn pitchers so he loses. No gain to you, only harm to him.


Come on now. You know that's not why the rule was put into place. If you pick up a player without the intention of playing him, you're churning... PERIOD!!!

Fortunately, we don't have anybody so unreasonable as LBJackal in our league. If you happen to, though, the solution is simple. Have the league vote as to what the intention of the rule is.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that LBJackal's strategy is designed to counter annoying spot starters. Unfortunately, spot starting isn't illegal and churning is. Make sure all rules are decided before the season starts. That's why we are discussing the two week rule now so this kind of thing doesn't happen next year.


People like me? You mean people who interpret the rules objectionably instead of in a manner that they think should be the rules? I'm not saying I condone doing it, I'm saying it's allowed to be done. I would never allow it in my league.

If you churn pitchers, you intend to make an opponent have lesser stats, ie: close the gap between you two, giving you a batter chance to win. Any way you can do that is within the rules, according to Yahoo.

"No owner will make any roster moves ... whose sole purpose is to hamper the play of other owners."

Now is your sole purpose in churning to hamper somebody elses play? No. Your purpose is to help your team. eMail Yahoo if you want them to tell you that. I guess you guys define "sole purpose" creatively. Because when my purpose is to increase my standing in the league, and I use a tactic that accomplishes that purpose, I find it hard to believe that somebody can say my SOLE PURPOSE was to hamper somebody elses play when clearly it wasn't.
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