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Postby DK » Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:47 pm

bleach168 wrote:The original poster's point was that Jordan would not be near as great if he didn't receive all the referee bias. He never said Jordan wasn't great.


He said Jordan wasn't that great. I'm refuting that statement.
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Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:01 pm

A. The NBA is terrible, but any true sports fan has known this for about 5 years now. Most of my friends also realize this. It is obvious that there is biased referreeing (sp?), etc. I think that all the complaining about the officiating may stem from this. In international play, the officials do not really know the players, and therefore everything is called equally.

B. I agree that if referees weren't biased, then SOME (and i specify some) of Joradn's greatness may have been taken away. I think that Wilt was a better player than Jordan.
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Postby donut » Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:04 pm

raiders_umpire wrote:
Strasil42 wrote:i dont agree at all and i actually think this is one of the dumbest things ive ever seen on the board and thats counting fatguywithamullets posts. The points about the nba going downhill are fine and i agree but i cant get over this.

I'm not going to make many friends here, but Michael Jordan was great, but not that great.


Thats boarderline mental retardation.


i agree with strasil also...as i would love to know what basketball games u saw that michael jordan was not great in.......MJ was hands down twice as good as about any other basketball player we will ever see.......


i know you're being hyperbolic in you statement but jordan did recieve alot of favorable calls in games. what the orginal poster said is true that jordan wouldn't be as great a player without those calls. jordan's reputaion did preceed him. c'mon he won a defensive player of the year award. not saying he's not a great defender but a good center is alot more valueable to a team than a really good perimeter defender.
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Postby donut » Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:10 pm

Fireball Express wrote:I stopped watching NBA years ago.
I'm into NCAA basketball though. Those kids go out there and play their hardest for the love of the game. It's more of a team sport and they stress fundamentals.

NBA lost it when the dunk became a bigger play than the jumper. I'll take "nothing but net" over a rocking backboard anyday.


college kids playing for the love of the game? maybe divsion 2 and 3 kids play for the love of the game. division one players go to college b/c they wouldn't be drafted out of highschool or need the exposure. why do you think so many kids leave early once they know they'll be a first round pick. half these kids don't attend classes and then get their class work done for them. when i was in college i could always tell which students were part of the big 3 sports in college. remember omeka okafor is the exemption not the rule. i'll agree that the ncaa plays more fundamental ball but every year they're digressing to nba levels.
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Postby donut » Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:19 pm

oh...and for the nba...i love it and watch it every chance i get. even with all it's imperfection i still think it's the best sport to watch. you have the most athletic people in the world playing a game where that athleticism is displayed in every play. there's alot of scoring relative to baseball and football(i don't follow hockey) and the players personality(wether good or bad) is always highlighted. more so than the nfl and baseball. the nfl cause they're only on the field half the time and have helmets on. baseball cause a majority of the time they're in the dugout or on defense where we only see them if the balls gets hit to them(unless you're a pitcher where you get more exposure albiet only every 5 days). that's the reason why nba players are more marketable and tend to make more money in endorsements. just my 2 cents.
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Postby Strasil42 » Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:53 pm

B. I agree that if referees weren't biased, then SOME (and i specify some) of Joradn's greatness may have been taken away. I think that Wilt was a better player than Jordan.


This is a dumb arguement. So you think that maddux and bonds arent that good because they get favorable calls?? The best players always get better calls, even if it isnt fair. They earned it. YOu think all those last second shots went in because of a ref? It went in because jordan is unbelievable, and the most "clutch" shooter of all time.

c'mon he won a defensive player of the year award. not saying he's not a great defender but a good center is alot more valueable to a team than a really good perimeter defender


Jordan was a great defender. Theres a reason why only 1 person in nba history has ever had more steals than him.
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Postby raiders_umpire » Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:09 pm

i know you're being hyperbolic in you statement but jordan did recieve alot of favorable calls in games


yes he received the benefit of the doubt on some close calls because of who he was, but so does tom glavine on a corner pitch and so does barry bonds on a corner pitch.....after being a stud performer for years in sports you earn those calls.....but still u will not convince me otherwise that MJ would not have been as great without a extra call or so a game go his way.......

and he was not a strong defender????????what are u talking about,,,he night in night out guarded the other teams best perimeter offensive player , and 9 times out of 10 shut the opposing player down.....he was probably as good a off the ball defender in the NBA during the late 80s and early 90s......so yes he did deserve the defensive player of the year award over a center
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Postby donut » Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:26 pm

first off i never said jordan wasn't a great defender...i think he is...for a perimeter player. a perimeter player winning the defensive player of the year award is just ridiculous. it's like giving john olerud a defensive player of the year award for baseball over mike cameron. olerud being a great defensive first baseman and cameron being a good center fielder. but cameron is imo much more valueable defensively. i agree with you guys say players like jordan, glavine and bonds earned those borderline calls. i'm not saying they don't deserve it but they wouldn't be as great without those calls. i've never really had an opportunity to watch too many bulls games but didn't pippen do most of the defensive work against the opposing teams best perimeter player so jordan could save himself a little for offense? again, i haven't seen too many bulls games.
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Postby raiders_umpire » Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:37 pm

i've never really had an opportunity to watch too many bulls games but didn't pippen do most of the defensive work against the opposing teams best perimeter player so jordan could save himself a little for offense? again, i haven't seen too many bulls games



later in jordans career, pippen did guard the best player most of the time as jordan guarded the point guard quite a bit then...but before jordans first retirement, it was mainly jordan on the best defender except for some games in the playoffs......
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Postby Amazinz » Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:53 pm

It is stupid to disregard the fact that NBA rule changes elevated Jordan's game to another level. That's not to say he wasn't great but he was indeed made greater than he was.

Wilt Chamberlain said it best: "If Michael was here right now, I would say to him: When you are so great that the league tries to change the rules in an attempt to stop you then you can claim you are the best ever. Every rule change I have seen during your career has been meant to enhance your game (such as shortened 3 point line, hand checking rules & well defined rules regarding illegal defenses)."
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