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Postby Amazinz » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:35 am

pbeall100281 wrote:Mullet doen't think that stathead numbers can objectively evaluate a players potential.

I think we got that part but when you think about it that is a crazy statement. To evaluate something objectively means to evaluate something based on observable phenomena uninfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice.

When you judge players based on statistical evidence, evaluating objectively is exactly what you are doing.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:27 pm

Amazinz wrote:
pbeall100281 wrote:Mullet doen't think that stathead numbers can objectively evaluate a players potential.

I think we got that part but when you think about it that is a crazy statement. To evaluate something objectively means to evaluate something based on observable phenomena uninfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice.

When you judge players based on statistical evidence, evaluating objectively is exactly what you are doing.


Thanks for saying what I was trying to say!

Since I think Mullet has a point he's trying to make, but his statement doesn't make sense, I'm still trying to figure out what he's saying. He could be saying that stats other than the sabrmetric stats capture important aspects of player performance. he could be saying that there are things that cannot be measured that are important for player performance. Or he could be saying a lot of other things. But what he has said is just illogical by definition of the words he used. So, I hope he can clear it up.
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Postby pbeall100281 » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:13 am

Amazinz wrote:
When you judge players based on statistical evidence, evaluating objectively is exactly what you are doing.


That is almost complete BS, anyone with half a brain knows that the best way to lie is with statistics. If presented with some common sense they can tell the truth but by definition most statistics are subjective.

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Postby Amazinz » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:10 pm

pbeall100281 wrote:
Amazinz wrote:When you judge players based on statistical evidence, evaluating objectively is exactly what you are doing.

That is almost complete BS, anyone with half a brain knows that the best way to lie is with statistics. If presented with some common sense they can tell the truth but by definition most statistics are subjective.
Tangent: Know one of the basic rules of science, observation affects outcome.

Anyone older than 14 knows that the best way to lie is with roses and chocolates. :-D

Pbeall, you just pulled a Sammy Sosa. You just took a tremendous hack, didn't come close to hitting the ball and now we're all standing in a billowing cloud of dust and hot air.

I have trouble believing that someone with half a brain could make a dimwitted statement such as, "by definition most statistics are subjective". Perhaps I can break it down for you and give you a math lesson (a grammar lesson is in order also but I'm running short of time this morning).

If presented with some common sense they can tell the truth but by definition most statistics are subjective.

First off, I think what you mean to say is that the interpretation of the statistics are subjective or that the collection of the statistics was done subjectively. The statistics themselves, the numbers, cannot be subjective they just are. The statistics can be used subjectively such as when the media takes a particular percentage out of the light and presents it to be fact.

There can be flaws in statistical collection methods but we don't have that problem in baseball. We will assume that the data collection is nearly perfect. So in this case, unless you have an agenda, evaluating baseball statistics is completely objective.

Tangent: Know one of the basic rules of science, observation affects outcome.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Perhaps next time you decide to jump on here and blast someone you'll have a clue as to what you were talking about. ;-D
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Postby Madison » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:51 pm

Amazinz wrote:Pbeall, you just pulled a Sammy Sosa. You just took a tremendous hack, didn't come close to hitting the ball and now we're all standing in a billowing cloud of dust and hot air.


Oh wow 8-o . Lmao! :-D That is hilarious. :-b



Since it appears this might heat up a bit, just a friendly reminder to please play nice. ;-)
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Postby pgbridge2000 » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:59 pm

"He uses statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost, for support not illumination" [in context read: deciding factor] --Andrew Lang

Statistics aren't to be used as paramount, but more to be used as an objective measure of a player (as many have said) it is a misconception that moneyballists only look at statistics for the value of a player, in fact moneyballism I feel revolves around the fact that certain (albeit less popular) statistics are better measurements of players than opinions. If Ricky Henderson scouted he'd probably give more credit than is due to a player with good basestealing instincts, not one who actually steals a lot of bases, even if the instincts don't amount to anything. If Don Mattingly was scouting potential first basemen, he might prefer one who is more sound health-wise than someone who is a flatout better player, because of his personal bias of being affected by a back injury.

It is the subjective aspect of baseball that can determine who a good team player is; statistics show Nomar Garciaparra as a better player than Orlando Cabrera, but Cabrera is better for the Red Sox because of his personality. Whether that was a consideration for the trade I don't know, but i'm sure it is a consideration now when they try to resign him. Case and point: Derek Jeter, makes an exorbitant amount of money for how well he plays (or even played) but he is the Yankee captain, is there clutch player, and is a good influence on the team. His numbers will get him the offer, but his team persona will be what makes sure the offer comes from the Yankees.

It is logical to therefore assume that even moneyballists, and even Billy Beane himself, look considerably at a player's personality before signing him. It is why the Yankees wanted El Duque (besides that the Red Sox wanted him) it is because even though he was injured they had taken risks on pitching prodigy's (ted lilly and Jeff Weaver) but neither was an NY player, whereas El Duque proved (9-2 2... era in the playoffs) that he could handle the NY pressure so inferior skill (at that time) lead to his signing. I know that Oakland which thrives on good pitching and lacks in hitting in recent years due to an exodus by their power hitters (read: McGuire, Giambi, Tejada, Canseco, etc.) will try hard to resign Chavez because of not only what he brings statistically but what he brings mentally to the team. It is safe to say that Pedro despite having relatively good moneyball stats, would not be persued by the team because of his penchant for being a bad influence in the clubhouse (and the exorbitant salary that accompanies it).

Finally I simply say that the argument between Baseball Purists and Moneyballists is a pointless one because one without the other doesn't work. You can't build a great team on pure subjectability (I like Tino Martinez for his clubhouse persona and his history of great play for the Yankees, but he wouldn't make a great player on most teams anymore) and pure objectability is liable to create a clubhouse of Pedros, Nomars, Giambi's {to the extent of utter injurydom}, and so on, which creates a team that will do well in the regular season but fold in the pressure. It is the combination of both that creates harmony on a team.


Also as mentioned in the first post of the thread, you are adverse to moneyballists who hate subjective viewpoints, moneyballists are objectivists

Also It is a terrible shame to see you leave the board, I have been following it for about 2 years of posting under a different name and as a guest and I think it's a shame to lose someone not afraid to tirade his own viewpoints instead of just agreeing with something the experts have said... sorry if I did just that but I skimmed the posts after the first page so if I repeated anything I'm sorry.
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Postby Arlo » Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:19 am

pgbridge2000 wrote:It is logical to therefore assume that even moneyballists, and even Billy Beane himself, look considerably at a player's personality before signing him.

Absolutely; just think of the "Milo pictures" attached to players on Oakland's charts.
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Postby DK » Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:44 pm

Arlo wrote:
pgbridge2000 wrote:It is logical to therefore assume that even moneyballists, and even Billy Beane himself, look considerably at a player's personality before signing him.

Absolutely; just think of the "Milo pictures" attached to players on Oakland's charts.


That was definitely one of the funniest parts of the book.

"Put a Milo on him."

:-D
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