Statheads - The Bane of Baseball - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Statheads - The Bane of Baseball

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby Tavish » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:03 pm

thetongueofire wrote:lol. but i just love it when people come and bash Beane/Moneyball without ever having read anything hes written.


What has Beane written? O:-)
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11070
(Past Year: 25)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby thetongueofire » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:11 pm

Tavish wrote:
thetongueofire wrote:lol. but i just love it when people come and bash Beane/Moneyball without ever having read anything hes written.


What has Beane written? O:-)


slip of tongue. just woke up. :-o
thetongueofire
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 3622
Joined: 8 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby FatGuyWithAMullet » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:45 pm

Oh pray tell thetongueofire, where did I *bash* Billy Beane or Michael Lewis? I merely questioned the philosophy/approach.

Don't kid yourself. I've read Moneyball, I've also read a few of Bill James' books. I just disagree with the entire notion that numbers can objectively evaluate an individual player's performance/potential.
FatGuyWithAMullet
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 850
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Uranus

Postby thetongueofire » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:52 pm

FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:Oh pray tell thetongueofire, where did I *bash* Billy Beane or Michael Lewis? I merely questioned the philosophy/approach.

Don't kid yourself. I've read Moneyball, I've also read a few of Bill James' books. I just disagree with the entire notion that numbers can objectively evaluate an individual player's performance.


not talking about you... you didnt "bash" anything. but it happens a lot. i could dig quite a few posts like that. all these "old school" people just hear about and him and without reading mb or anything else, criticize the whole mb approach.

btw i love the "oh pray tongueofire... " thing. so "old school". :-D ;-D
thetongueofire
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 3622
Joined: 8 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:17 pm

FatGuyWithAMullet wrote: I just disagree with the entire notion that numbers can objectively evaluate an individual player's performance/potential.



Can you explain what you mean by that? I'm serious. I cannot make heads or tails of what that sentence means.
GotowarMissAgnes
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy Expert
Posts: 5516
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Happy Valley

Postby Tavish » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:25 pm

Leonard Koppert wrote:"Statistics are the lifeblood of baseball. In no other sport are so many available and studied so assiduously by participants and fans. Much of the game's appeal, as a conversation piece, lies in the opportunity the fan gets to back up opinions and arguments with convincing figures, and it is entirely possible that more American boys have mastered long division by dealing with batting averages than in any other way."
Image

Bury me a Royal.
Tavish
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterWeb Supporter
Posts: 11070
(Past Year: 25)
Joined: 3 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Amazinz » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:28 pm

Tavish wrote:
Leonard Koppert wrote:"Statistics are the lifeblood of baseball. In no other sport are so many available and studied so assiduously by participants and fans. Much of the game's appeal, as a conversation piece, lies in the opportunity the fan gets to back up opinions and arguments with convincing figures, and it is entirely possible that more American boys have mastered long division by dealing with batting averages than in any other way."

Great quote. ;-D
Image
Maine has a good swing for a pitcher but on anything that moves, he has no chance. And if it's a fastball, it has to be up in the zone. Basically, the pitcher has to hit his bat. - Mike Pelfrey
Amazinz
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 18800
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: in Canada, toughening up figure skaters

Mullet man

Postby pbeall100281 » Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:57 am

Fatguywithamullet:

I respect your the thesis of your argument: "The problem that I have - whether it's this discussion or in the "Moneyball" debate - is the fact that some people place too much emphasis on statistical evaluation" but I think you have the wrong perception when you say "Billy Beane downplayed the role of traditional old-school scouts and even of the manager. So I'm sure he would not value the contribution of a player who has come into the clubhouse and created energy and given the team a spark. Certainly not. There's no stat to put on that in his mind." I simply feel that Beane concentrated more on other aspects of baseball such as statistics rather than "downplaying" the roles you speak of. Of course, when you invest your $ and time in something other than traditional ways you sacrifice, to certain degree, an aspect of that traditional value. But I would say he took advantage of a perception of baseball that few had rather than discredited and institution. His success can be attributed not only to his "new age" approach but also to taking an angle on the game that preyed on teams who would take the more traditional approach. Problem is when it comes down to an all out 5-7 game series the long-term approach of Beane Ball doesn't work and Beane should pay close attention to that stat
;-D

I also respect Beane's viewpoint that investing heavily in scouting might not be the best way to go. If you could look at composite statistics of every starting pitcher who scouts said would be great compared to how their careers actually went I think you'd find that there isn't a high degree of accuracy. Hitting is more predictable but, the predictability of good pitching gives Beane's agruement worth.

Hitting wise I think we all could see with the recent Boston series Eric Chavez and a bunch of OBP guys can't get it done vs. Top Tier starting pitching.

You shouldn't leave this board. How else are people going hear your viewpoints. Many of these people here are highly educated in baseball(maybe not politics w :-D )...I recently went back and read some posts of members who have been around a while. After doing so I elected to put that little "L" thingy by my name. I thought just because I won my first FBL ever, am currently in 1st in three in four competitive leagues, second in the fourth and followed baseball for the last 23 years I'd be at least varsity with guys who had only been on site created in '03. Nope. JV at best. I've got plenty to learn.

My point is, it would be ignorant of you to leave. There no way you couldn't learn to appreciate at least something that the more experienced members of this site have to say.

Anyway there's my pitch. Personally, I like your stimulating comments and opinions.
Wisdom can give you direction, emotion gets you there. - Jim Rohn
pbeall100281 Beginner
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 497
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: ORYGUN

Postby pbeall100281 » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:08 am

FatGuyWithAMullet wrote:Oh pray tell thetongueofire, where did I *bash* Billy Beane or Michael Lewis? I merely questioned the philosophy/approach.

I just disagree with the entire notion that numbers can objectively evaluate an individual player's performance/potential.


Well you are honest BUT, you don't tell the truth, THE WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the truth. I'm sure you understand that nothing and no one can objectively evaluate an individual player's performance/potential and I think that you need to include that fact if you are going make such an agruement.

So when you look at it there is really no arguement, unless someone out there is claiming that Billy Beane, Bill James or The Pope can objectively evaluate an individual player's performance/potential. Is anyone? Cause I got The Pope.
Wisdom can give you direction, emotion gets you there. - Jim Rohn
pbeall100281 Beginner
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 497
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: ORYGUN

Postby pbeall100281 » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:14 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
FatGuyWithAMullet wrote: I just disagree with the entire notion that numbers can objectively evaluate an individual player's performance/potential.



Can you explain what you mean by that? I'm serious. I cannot make heads or tails of what that sentence means.



Mullet doen't think that stathead numbers can objectively evaluate a players potential.
Wisdom can give you direction, emotion gets you there. - Jim Rohn
pbeall100281 Beginner
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 497
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: ORYGUN

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 8 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Tuesday, Oct. 21
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

San Francisco at Kansas City
(8:07 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact