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Y BB is NL MVP

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Y BB is NL MVP

Postby Bloody Nipples » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:08 pm

Go ahead and say that Pujols or Rolen should get the MVP because of their numbers and because their team is in first place.... I will only laugh. Thats because you have missed something very interesting. To set this up, lets compare the Giants' and the Cards' lineups:

Giants: Cardinals:
Durham Womack
Grissom Walker
Snow Pujols
Bonds Rolen
Alfonzo Renteria
Tucker Edmonds
Pierzynski Sanders
Cruz Matheny

Now, which is the better lineup? I think we can all agree that the Cardinals have the far superior lineup. Now, who do you think has scored more runs this year? Looking at those lineups, I think we can all agree that the Cardinals should have scored more runs this year. Does anybody see where I am going yet? Then here we go.....

It turns out that we were all wrong about who scored the most runs. In fact, the Giants have scored 642 runs to the Cards' 636. Not a big difference, but shouldnt St. Louis have way more runs scored on the year than the Giants, especially when they have 2 MVP caliber players on their team, AND three other amazing hitters? Based on talent alone, definitely yes. But based on the Bonds factor, no.

The Cardinals have a better team average than the Giants, but all stat buffs know that OBP is a much better ratio to use, so lets look at that: the Giants have the second highest team OBP at .357, while the Cardinals only have a .344 OBP. We all know that Bonds' .600 OBP is the difference here.

Now is the time for those of you Bonds haters to say that his OBP is bogus and not representitive of his talent because he gets walked intentionally so much....Go on, say it.....WRONG! THAT DEOSNT MATTER! Let me ask you this, how many more HRs and RBI would Bonds have if he was walked the same amount as Pujols. Lets do the math: Bonds has 174 walks, and Pujols has 61. If we give Bonds 113 more ABs, he would have, according to his HR/AB average, 14 more HRs. If we give Bonds 113 more ABs, he would have, according to his RBI/AB average, 31 more RBI. But that number is low, because he mostly gets walked when there are men on base. If we gave Bonds 113 more ABs, he would be leading the majors in HRs by 11, be leading the majors in RBI, and he still would be leading the NL in hitting. Thats a Triple Crown season right there!

If that is not proof enough that he should be the MVP, I dont know what is. However, some may say that the MVP should go to the player who is "most valuable to his team," not the best player in the league. I agree, but I dont think that means that the MVP's team has to be in first place. If we take Bonds away from the Giants lineup, what happens? Dustin Mohr goes into left field, and the giants best hitter this year becomes JT Snow, who, without the protection he gets from Bonds, would not be hitting nearly as well. If we take Pujols or Rolen away from the Cardinals, they are still left with on of them, Walker, Renteria, and Edmonds, all great hitters. While losing Bonds would be absolutely devastating to the Giants, losing Pujols or Rolen, though not a good thing, would be only minor inconvenience, as the rest of that stacked lineup could easily pick up the slack.

Once again, though, some of you may bring up the defense that Rolen brings to the table. But how many runs do you think Rolen prevents with his defense? I am not sure how many, but I am pretty sure that that number, plus the number of runs he creates for the Cardinals, is close to the number of runs Bonds creates for the Giants.

If somebody wants to challenge this argument, bring it on! :-D
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Postby Tavish » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:17 pm

Once again, though, some of you may bring up the defense that Rolen brings to the table. But how many runs do you think Rolen prevents with his defense? I am not sure how many, but I am pretty sure that that number, plus the number of runs he creates for the Cardinals, is close to the number of runs Bonds creates for the Giants.


Rolen's defense is not even close to making up the difference. His defense might come close to closing the gap on Pujols, but Bonds is still in a completely different league than every other player in the game. Outs are the most important commodity in baseball. Bonds does everything Pujols does while giving up much fewer outs. In other words he is not only as productive as Pujols when he hits, he also gives his teammates more oppurtunities.

If somebody wants to challenge this argument, bring it on!

I hope someone takes you up on that. I always love to hear new ways that people try to devalue historic numbers.
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Postby Bloody Nipples » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:20 pm

Tavish wrote:Rolen's defense is not even close to making up the difference. His defense might come close to closing the gap on Pujols, but Bonds is still in a completely different league than every other player in the game. Outs are the most important commodity in baseball. Bonds does everything Pujols does while giving up much fewer outs. In other words he is not only as productive as Pujols when he hits, he also gives his teammates more oppurtunities.


Great point. I hadnt thought of that.
Last edited by Bloody Nipples on Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Y BB is NL MVP

Postby raiders_umpire » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:41 pm

Bloody Nipples wrote:
If somebody wants to challenge this argument, bring it on! :-D



trust me i would love a good debate with you , but i cant ......as i agree with you 100% even though i am not a big bonds fan....but his numbers speak for themselves......600 obp is just truly awesome......bonds for MVP again.....
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Postby Madison » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:43 pm

Last year I argued in favor of Pujols, but this year it's tough to figure out Rolen/Pujols, much less toss Barry into the mix. Definitely interesting to put the three of them side by side by side.

Right now it's a complete tossup between the three of them for me. B-)
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Postby Bloody Nipples » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:45 pm

Madison wrote:Last year I argued in favor of Pujols, but this year it's tough to figure out Rolen/Pujols, much less toss Barry into the mix. Definitely interesting to put the three of them side by side by side.

Right now it's a complete tossup between the three of them for me. B-)


Can you explain why you dont agree that Bonds is far and away the MVP? Whats your reasoning? Doesnt the simple fact that both Pujols and Rolen are on the same team give the award to Bonds?
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Postby beltrans_boy » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:46 pm

If the Giants don't make the playoffs, the whole point is irrelevant anyway.
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Postby Bloody Nipples » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:47 pm

beltrans_boy wrote:If the Giants don't make the playoffs, the whole point is irrelevant anyway.


And why is that? Its the "Most Valuable Player" award, not the "Best Player on a Playoff Team" award.
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Postby beltrans_boy » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:51 pm

Bloody Nipples wrote:
beltrans_boy wrote:If the Giants don't make the playoffs, the whole point is irrelevant anyway.


And why is that? Its the "Most Valuable Player" award, not the "Best Player on a Playoff Team" award.


Tell that to the sportswriters who vote on the award. I never said I agreed with it, but that's the way it's always been and always will be.
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Postby raiders_umpire » Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:02 pm

beltrans_boy wrote:
Bloody Nipples wrote:
beltrans_boy wrote:If the Giants don't make the playoffs, the whole point is irrelevant anyway.


And why is that? Its the "Most Valuable Player" award, not the "Best Player on a Playoff Team" award.


Tell that to the sportswriters who vote on the award. I never said I agreed with it, but that's the way it's always been and always will be.



ummmmmmmmm :-? who won al mvp last year??????? arod with the rangers and they did not go to the playoffs.....so i dont think it is always been and always will be....
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