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Postby Rirruto » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:10 pm

DK wrote:Our eyes may deceive us, but the stats never lie.


The HoF is alot more about total stats than average stats. Total stats such as 3000 hits, 500 HR, 500 SB, 1500 RBI, things like that. I know those are arbitrary round numbers but they are used as benchmarks. Ignore it as much as you want, but stats like that are alot more important to the voters than OPS and OBP. Whether that is the right way to go about it is a completely different story, we are talking about if he is going to the Hall or not.
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Postby BGbootha » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:45 pm

Wow. I didn't realize i would spark sucha debate here. personally i do believe that he should be in the hall.

Simply due to the fact (and it has been said by pretty much everyone here) that he is the greatest at his position. Granted that position is DH it is still a positition. Ask yourself this. If you had to choose one DH throughout history to be on your team, who would it be. More likely than not, you going to chooose Edgar.

Now that being said i will be the first to admit i am quite a homer when it comes to edgar (see sig), he is one of the reasons i love the game the way i do. ONe of the classiest nicest guys in the game. The game could use more edgars, period.

IN the end we shall see come 2009. Hopefully by then the DH position will have gained a little more respect from the group.
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Postby Precise » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:10 pm

BGbootha wrote:Wow. I didn't realize i would spark sucha debate here. personally i do believe that he should be in the hall.

Simply due to the fact (and it has been said by pretty much everyone here) that he is the greatest at his position. Granted that position is DH it is still a positition. Ask yourself this. If you had to choose one DH throughout history to be on your team, who would it be. More likely than not, you going to chooose Edgar.


most people wouldnt choose edgar because any great hitter can be put into that dh slot. its an arbitrary position.... like the utility spot on our fantasy teams.

with that said, edgar is a great hitter and a class act.... imo, he falls short of the hof.
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Postby DK » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:41 pm

Rirruto wrote:
DK wrote:Our eyes may deceive us, but the stats never lie.


The HoF is alot more about total stats than average stats. Total stats such as 3000 hits, 500 HR, 500 SB, 1500 RBI, things like that. I know those are arbitrary round numbers but they are used as benchmarks. Ignore it as much as you want, but stats like that are alot more important to the voters than OPS and OBP. Whether that is the right way to go about it is a completely different story, we are talking about if he is going to the Hall or not.


I have a question for you, then:

Do you think he should be in the Hall of Fame?

Not a writer's choice or Veteran's Committee. Do YOU think he should go?
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Postby Rirruto » Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:55 pm

DK wrote:I have a question for you, then:

Do you think he should be in the Hall of Fame?

Not a writer's choice or Veteran's Committee. Do YOU think he should go?


In my book he is a borderline HoF. I am very aware of how good of a hitter he was, but when you compare him to his counterparts (hitters) of his era, there are alot more convincing names and who make a better case. (Griffey, Raffy, Thomas, Manny if he keeps it up, Sammy, McGwire, Bonds, A-Rod if he keeps it up, guys like that) But, he has had 7-8 very strong seasons. If that is enough though, I'm not sure of. That's why he is borderline in MY eyes. You already know what I think if he is a HoFer in the voters' eyes.
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:51 am

It was mentioned before, but http://www.baseball-reference.com has a Hall of Fame monitor. This is the explanation:

This is another Jamesian creation. It attempts to assess how likely (not how deserving) an active player is to make the Hall of Fame. It's rough scale is 100 means a good possibility and 130 is a virtual cinch. It isn't hard and fast, but it does a pretty good job


Entering this season, Edgar Martinez had a ranking of 128. Remember, this isn't SHOULD he be in, this is HOW LIKELY he is to be inducted.

The players around Edgar in the Hall of Fame Monitor numbers:
Robin Young-132
Steve Garvey-130
Earl Averill-128
Edgar Martinez-128
Sam Rice-128
Brooks Robinson-128

Garvey is the only guy in that group of retired players not in the Hall of Fame

Another thing is that Edgar's hit total is lower because he walked so much. Barry Bonds has 2685 hits and 2225 walks. It's possible he won't get to the magic 3000 hits.

If you look at Times on Base, Edgar is at 3564 times on base in his career, with a couple months left in this season. He keeps company with these Hall of Famers:

Willie McCovery--3625
Zach Wheat--3611
Willie Keeler--3585
Al Simmons--3572
Edgar Martinez--3564
Harry Heilmann--3556

There are other Hall of Fame metrics on the Baseball Reference web site and Edgar is in the mix with other Hall of Famers in those also.

Lastly, Edgar has 2205 hits and 1272 walks. If half of those walks were hits, giving him 2805 and 672, would he then be more eligible? It's the same amount of times on base, but it looks so much better. How about 1/3 of his walks turned to hits: 2505 hits, 972 walks, would that make him Hall-worthy?

I think we've advanced to the point where we know that on-base percentage is more important than batting average. That should be a given by now.

The way I see it, Edgar has had 8,500 plate-appearances in the Major Leagues and put up a .420 OBP and only 20 players in MLB history can beat that. Only 58 players top his .518 SLG. Only 32 players can top his .938 OPS.

There are many players already in the Hall who were nowhere near the player Edgar is.
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:11 am

For the level of skill he's shown, he doesn't have enough at bats. Even if he was a fielder....... he might not get in with only 11 full seasons. If he had 15 or so full seasons, I might consider him. Being a DH would still hurt him though.

I have a hard time believing he should be in the hall because of the reasons I jsut stated, as well as the probability that he wouldn't even have lasted for 10 full seasons if not for the DH rule. He might have played 1B for a few seasons, which would further his physical problems, and who knows if he would even be playing in the year 2000 with the added stress on his body and lack of a spot in the lineup sicne he can't field.

In summation:

- Great hitter in his prime, no doubt up there with the best of the past few decades

- Didn't play enough games to be considered for the HoF with his skill level

- Didn't play a position, which otherwise would have limited his playing time greatly, and probably would have forced him to retire at a much younger age
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:08 pm

Using your reasoning, there's no way Sandy Koufax should be in the Hall of Fame:

~Only 165 career wins
~Only 5 good seasons
~Didn't play enough seasons overall (12 seasons, only 5 seasons with more than 200 IP)

Koufax is in the Hall of Fame because of a 5-year period of excellence, not because of his career stats.
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Postby DK » Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:04 pm

Finally, someone on my side. Thanks, Bobby, they were ganging up on me. :D

Edgar Martinez had 6,727 AB. When you factor in his walks and HBP, it totals over 8,000 plate appearances. Players have gotten into the Hall with less than 8,000 PA.

If a guy's career #'s are 3,000 for 8,000 for a .375 average, but NO walks, he'll obviously go to the Hall of Fame regardless of the BB totals. If Edgar gets on base 42% of the time in the same amount of plate appearances, he has obviously done more to help his team. Does he go to the Hall? People call him "borderline". He's not borderline. He's a legitimate Hall of Famer.
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Postby BGbootha » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:52 pm

LBJackal wrote:- Didn't play a position, which otherwise would have limited his playing time greatly, and probably would have forced him to retire at a much younger age



The funny thing about this is that DH is a position.
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