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Postby DK » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:14 pm

Rirruto wrote:
DK wrote:1. Wait a minute. I can't cite the greatest hitters of all time who had no rings, but you can cite the greatest fielders of all time in the comparison? You can't have it both ways.

2.It's more about the ability to pitch rather than the ability to field. Pitching is ten times more important than fielding alone.


Dont try and change my words. I said you cant cite them and their 0 rings and compare them to Edgar Martinez.

Then, you were being all cynical saying that Rey Ordonez should be in the Hall because of his his good glove and I cited players who actually ARE in the Hall for their gloves. And we're not talking about pitching here. Again, dont try and undermine fielding, it's pretty asinine.


1. We ARE talking about pitching because you said earlier that good fielding saves runs. As a matter of fact, good pitching saves runs- many, many more runs than good fielding. You see, a pitcher has much more effect on runs than a fielder does. That's why The Big Unit has a great ERA year after year erstwhile Cory Lidle does not. You want to learn more about this, look up Voros McCracken.

2. Yes, that's two players that are in for their gloves. and 147 that are in for their bats. Again- is Edgar Martinez in the top 150 hitters of all time? Yes. is he a top 100? Yes. Top 50? Maybe, probably not. I'd say purely hitting-wise, he is in the top 75. Just because he didn't field doesn't give anyone the right to knock him down 75 spots and out of the Hall of Fame.

3. ONCE more. Edgar Martinez was taken out of the field for good at the start of 1995. It was a MANAGERIAL decision. Martinez's Range Factor was better than the average 3B when he was playing (2.42 to 2.34). He WAS a good fielder, at least an above-average one, at the beginning of his career. We can't discredit him for what he might have done in the field post-1995.
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Postby Precise » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:20 pm

DK wrote:
Precise wrote:LMAO off at saying fielding is overrated. that statement in itself is ludicrous. the problem with your statistical analysis is that you are arguing edgar belongs in the hof based on the fact that his hitting numbers compare well with other hall of famers.

sorry buddy, but the overwhelming majority of the players in the hall of fame got enshrined because of a COMBINATION of hitting, defense, leadership, and team success, etc.

so yeah, edgar martinez is one of the top 150 hitters of all time. lets give him a plaque that says so......... lets not put him in the HOF.


Right. So, in that case, Ted Williams- no WS success, horrible glove- let's leave him off the ballot, he's not worthy. Babe Ruth? Sure, he had a ton of success, but all that fat on him made him a horrible fielder, so into the trash he goes. I could go on for days. Meanwhile, Rey Ordonez? Oh man, what a glove! Hall of Fame in my book.

Huh... At least I gave stats backing up my analysis that fielding is overrated... All you give is personal opinion, insults, and petty heresay...

Let's hear some proof, shall we? :-?


DK, if you feel i am insulting you.. it must be because you are an insecure person because i am not insulting you at all. you are only using stats and analogies that support your homerish argument. how else can you explain you comparing the edgar martinez situation with ted williams and babe ruth? the fact is, babe ruth and ted williams trancended the game and not only were they arguably the PREMIER player of their times.... they were considered american icons for god sake!

you want a stat that highlights why edgar martinez shouldnt be in the hof? here's one:

% of games playing a field position: last

your conunterargument: fielding is overrated
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Postby DK » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:24 pm

Precise wrote:you want a stat that highlights why edgar martinez shouldnt be in the hof? here's one:

% of games playing a field position: last

your conunterargument: fielding is overrated


Apparently, you completely missed the entire statistical analysis I showed. I'll show it again.

DK already wrote:If Albert Belle plays such lazy outfield that he causes 10 unearned runs in a season (a VERY high number for a player to cause), all he needs to do is hit 10 HR in that season (Something Albert Belle could do VERY easily) to equate that function. Gold Glovers save runs. Great hitters create runs.


Homer? I doubt it. I'm a Mets fan, and I'm indifferent to the Mariners. I just look at the stats and they say, "Edgar Martinez is Hall-of-Fame worthy". No more, no less.
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Postby Precise » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:25 pm

DK wrote:2. Yes, that's two players that are in for their gloves. and 147 that are in for their bats. Again- is Edgar Martinez in the top 150 hitters of all time? Yes. is he a top 100? Yes. Top 50? Maybe, probably not. I'd say purely hitting-wise, he is in the top 75. Just because he didn't field doesn't give anyone the right to knock him down 75 spots and out of the Hall of Fame.



the vast majority of those 147 players arent in their JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR HITTING! A combination of ffactors led to them being enshrined.
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Postby DK » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:27 pm

Precise wrote:
DK wrote:2. Yes, that's two players that are in for their gloves. and 147 that are in for their bats. Again- is Edgar Martinez in the top 150 hitters of all time? Yes. is he a top 100? Yes. Top 50? Maybe, probably not. I'd say purely hitting-wise, he is in the top 75. Just because he didn't field doesn't give anyone the right to knock him down 75 spots and out of the Hall of Fame.



the vast majority of those 147 players arent in their JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR HITTING! A combination of ffactors led to them being enshrined.


But they are all in there MAINLY because of their hitting. I doubt that if Eddie Murray wore a milk carton instead of a glove that he would miss the Hall.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:38 pm

DK wrote:
Rirruto wrote:
DK wrote:1. Wait a minute. I can't cite the greatest hitters of all time who had no rings, but you can cite the greatest fielders of all time in the comparison? You can't have it both ways.

2.It's more about the ability to pitch rather than the ability to field. Pitching is ten times more important than fielding alone.


Dont try and change my words. I said you cant cite them and their 0 rings and compare them to Edgar Martinez.

Then, you were being all cynical saying that Rey Ordonez should be in the Hall because of his his good glove and I cited players who actually ARE in the Hall for their gloves. And we're not talking about pitching here. Again, dont try and undermine fielding, it's pretty asinine.


1. We ARE talking about pitching because you said earlier that good fielding saves runs. As a matter of fact, good pitching saves runs- many, many more runs than good fielding. You see, a pitcher has much more effect on runs than a fielder does. That's why The Big Unit has a great ERA year after year erstwhile Cory Lidle does not. You want to learn more about this, look up Voros McCracken.

2. Yes, that's two players that are in for their gloves. and 147 that are in for their bats. Again- is Edgar Martinez in the top 150 hitters of all time? Yes. is he a top 100? Yes. Top 50? Maybe, probably not. I'd say purely hitting-wise, he is in the top 75. Just because he didn't field doesn't give anyone the right to knock him down 75 spots and out of the Hall of Fame.

3. ONCE more. Edgar Martinez was taken out of the field for good at the start of 1995. It was a MANAGERIAL decision. Martinez's Range Factor was better than the average 3B when he was playing (2.42 to 2.34). He WAS a good fielder, at least an above-average one, at the beginning of his career. We can't discredit him for what he might have done in the field post-1995.


1. Edgar didn't pitch, he didn't even step on the field for most of his career. Why are you bringing this up?

2. Whether or not YOU think he's top 50/100/150, or whatever, doens't make him a HOF player. HE DIDN"T PLAY LONG ENOUGH. You don't seem to get that. His BA/OPS are good, but he didn't play long enough to get in with those stats, and to boot he didin't even play a position because he was physically unable to do so. If he had to, he'd have retired long ago, with less than 2000 hits, and nobody even talking about him.

3. Managerial decision? More like, he COULDN'T play 3rd. Why else do you think they moved a good fielder to DH?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that despite a great BA, he only has 2200 hits. A decent OF with these stats might not even make it in, let alone a guy who played a great majority of his games sitting on his ass in the dugout while his teammates were busting their asses on the field. Put down your piece of paper with all those great OPS and BA numbers and realize his HR's, RBI, R, are all well below the standards that most voters go by for HOF induction. 305 HR and 1244 RBI are NOT even close to the standards. Or else Chili Davis would be in the Hall, since he has more Hits, HR, RBI, and R than Edgar. And he played the field for 1186 games..... compared to 591 for Edgar. My point is, neither of thsoe guys should be in the HoF. Even Chili who had better stats almost all the way around the board, and played the field twice as often.

Edgar was a great hitter for a span of about 8 or 9 years. That isn't enough to get him into the Hall.......... and arguing this seems pointless to me. Other than his magical career OPS and BA you have no ground to say he belongs with the greatest of all-time.
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Postby Rirruto » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:38 pm

But they are all in there MAINLY because of their hitting. I doubt that if Eddie Murray wore a milk carton instead of a glove that he would miss the Hall.

Eddie Murray has 3200+ hits and 500+ HR. Edgar is nowhere near those plateaus.


We can't discredit him for what he might have done in the field post-1995.

Yes we can discredit it because him playing on the field post '95 never happened.


I just look at the stats and they say, "Edgar Martinez is Hall-of-Fame worthy". No more, no less.

Since when is 297 HR and 1198 RBI (through '03) Hall of Fame worthy? Will Clark and Paul O'Neill have very similar numbers to that and I dont see anyone having hotly contested debates over them being HoFers. Why? Because they arent HoFers or HoF worthy.
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Postby Rhymes_T79 » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:43 pm

has anyone mentioned that edgar also won 2 batting titles? i dont know if that helps/hurts anyones argument... btw, do you guys remember that the mariners SUCKED SERIOUS ASS until 95? does that affect edgars stats? playing for a major league farm team for half his career? just raising the question..

on a serious level tho... Im a seattlelite, born and raised. edgar is synonomous with Seattle and the Mariners organization. WE WILL MISS YOU PAPI. one of the best right handed hitters of all-time. and one of the best batting eyes ever. CAREER OBP is just ridiculous. u think billy beane would have liked edgar back in the day?

come back as an assitant batting coach w/paul molitor and teach these young M's how to hit!!!

on a side note...didnt eddie murry play till he was like 60? like 25+ years in the majors? and btw, arent hits and walks kinda mutually exclusive? if edgar swung at everything like mike schmidt, he might have actually had 3000 hits! in terms of pure hitting, i think he's comparable to tony gwynn. maybe not all gwynns accolades or numbers, but from a pure baseball GAME perspective.
Last edited by Rhymes_T79 on Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby KULCAT » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:46 pm

DH its a position in baseball. Regardless if it is used only the american league DH is a position as 2b is a position. 2B obviously is a more important position but u can make that argument with infielders and outfielders too. Bottom line is as long as DH is a position the guys that played it should be eligible for the Hall. I think the fact that Martinez was a good or bad defender is completely irrelevant. How many great defenders have lost a step with the years and have been moved to a less demanding position? Should that hurt their HOF chances?
Its a lot a like the argument thats SP should not be elgible for MVP. As long as the award goes to the most valuable PLAYER SP´s as players should be voted in, regardless of your personal opinion(and just to make it clear im oppossed to DH´s, if you cant pass mustard on the field you shouldnt be on the field either way, but thats my view and not the rule)
As for Martinez, his career numbers are just no that impressive to me. Just 2205 hits and 305 numbers. He started of too late he was 29 his first very good season and 32 his first stellar one. 7 years of being a star and 3 good ones in not enough for me. But thats how far i want my bar to be. If you gonna compare to some of the guys that are in the HOF he probably makes but in my opinion he doesnt
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Postby DK » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:57 pm

Rirruto wrote:Eddie Murray has 3200+ hits and 500+ HR. Edgar is nowhere near those plateaus.


Eddie Murray also had over 11,000 AB. Look deeper into the statistics and you'll see that Murray was more of a compiler. He had a mere .287 BA and even more mere .359 OBP, he just played forever.

Keep in mind: I am not knocking Murray. Murray is a Hall of Fame player. It's just that Martinez was better. I already did the OBP, SLG, and OPS stats, do you want to see them again?


Rirruto wrote:
We can't discredit him for what he might have done in the field post-1995.

Yes we can discredit it because him playing on the field post '95 never happened.


Let me rephrase that. You can't say that Martinez would have been a poor fielder post-1995 because the stats show otherwise. You can't bring him down a notch because of his manager's decision to stick him in the DH slot. Again, he was an above-average fielder.

Rirruto wrote:
I just look at the stats and they say, "Edgar Martinez is Hall-of-Fame worthy". No more, no less.

Since when is 297 HR and 1198 RBI (through '03) Hall of Fame worthy? Will Clark and Paul O'Neill have very similar numbers to that and I dont see anyone having hotly contested debates over them being HoFers. Why? Because they arent HoFers or HoF worthy.


You are looking at the wrong stats. I already explained that RBI is a circumstancial stat. Martinez played in a pitcher's park in his entire career and his stats still came up as this (I'll show them again, because you missed them the first time):

Bonds +102 +196 +179
Pujols +77 +189 +167
Martinez+86 +106 +151
Thome +68 +135 +151
A. Rodr. +39 +144 +144
Sosa +10 +125 +133

Which stack rather neatly with the rest of the league. All these guys, IMO (If Pujols and A-Rod keep playing for a little more, anyway) are legit sluggers with true HoF potential or locks for the HoF.



LBJackal wrote:1. Edgar didn't pitch, he didn't even step on the field for most of his career. Why are you bringing this up?

2. Whether or not YOU think he's top 50/100/150, or whatever, doens't make him a HOF player. HE DIDN"T PLAY LONG ENOUGH. You don't seem to get that. His BA/OPS are good, but he didn't play long enough to get in with those stats, and to boot he didin't even play a position because he was physically unable to do so. If he had to, he'd have retired long ago, with less than 2000 hits, and nobody even talking about him.

3. Managerial decision? More like, he COULDN'T play 3rd. Why else do you think they moved a good fielder to DH?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that despite a great BA, he only has 2200 hits. A decent OF with these stats might not even make it in, let alone a guy who played a great majority of his games sitting on his ass in the dugout while his teammates were busting their asses on the field. Put down your piece of paper with all those great OPS and BA numbers and realize his HR's, RBI, R, are all well below the standards that most voters go by for HOF induction. 305 HR and 1244 RBI are NOT even close to the standards. Or else Chili Davis would be in the Hall, since he has more Hits, HR, RBI, and R than Edgar. And he played the field for 1186 games..... compared to 591 for Edgar. My point is, neither of thsoe guys should be in the HoF. Even Chili who had better stats almost all the way around the board, and played the field twice as often.

Edgar was a great hitter for a span of about 8 or 9 years. That isn't enough to get him into the Hall.......... and arguing this seems pointless to me. Other than his magical career OPS and BA you have no ground to say he belongs with the greatest of all-time.


1.Somebody said that fielding was extremely important in saving runs. This is simply not true. Pitching is much more important in saving runs. But that's another debate for another time.

2.Right. So Sandy Koufax should be booted out of the Hall? His career started late, it's not his fault for that. He was an unsigned free agent for the Mariners in 1982, and he didn't play until 1987. He wasn't a regular until 1990. He couldn't control his playing time.

3.Regardless, the stats show he was an above-average third basemen. No doubt about it.

4.Chili Davis had nearly 2,000 more at-bats. It's not a fair comparison. Look at the 162-game averages for the two.

5. RBI is a CIRCUMSTANCIAL stat. When is everyone going to realize this? Barry Bonds had 46 HR and only 90 RBI in 2003. Does that make him a bad run producer? No. His team had a terrible offense.

6.Edgar didn't CHOOSE to sit his ass on the bench. It was the manager's decision to do so. Are you going to fault Martinez because of his manager?

7.Yes, his OPS and BA are magic. Houdini and I spawned them from baseball-reference.com.

8. OPS and BA are NOT the only arguments for his induction. Have you even been reading the last four pages? Don't make me type it again, please.

I'll say it one more time:

Our eyes may deceive us, but the stats never lie.
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