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Baby or Barry?

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Postby wrveres » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:35 am

LBJackal wrote:OK well there's no way to argue with somebody using faulty logic...... so I'll just stop worrying about it.


:-?

Faulty Logic . ?

please enlighten me
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:04 pm

Ruth's park helped him so thats why his numbers are better - WRONG
Ruth hit 367 HR on the road, and 347 HR at home.

Barry is better because pitchers are more talented now - WRONG
pitching was also much less watered down back then. But neither of those facts matter, since all hitters faced the same watered down/less talented pitchers. He didn't have an advantage over his peers.

Bonds has to face lefty specialists which is why Ruth had better numbers - WRONG
Same reasoning as above - all the hitters faced the same pitchers and had the same lack of specialied relief pitchers

Bonds is better because he has 500 SB's - WRONG
SB's help your runs scored totals; if we're taking RS into account when ranking these guys then SB's are redundant.

Those are all statements using faulty logic. Of course you don't think so... so there's no point in me saying anything more. Enlightenend yet?
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Postby slomo007 » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:22 pm

The Babe IMO, completely and utterly dominated his generation. Barry at least has comparable players (Pujols, Manny, Vlad)...Babe was in a league of his own.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:37 pm

LBJackal wrote:Bonds is better because he has 500 SB's - WRONG
SB's help your runs scored totals; if we're taking RS into account when ranking these guys then SB's are redundant.


I don't understand this statement. Saying that you are counting runs so SB don't matter is like saying that SLG doesn't matter and a triple is the same as a single because you are counting RBIs and counting RBIs and SLG would be redundant.

The SB is a definite skill and a valuable weapon in the game and should be considered when comparing players.

I'm pretty sure The Babe hit more HR's on the road than at home....... regardless, whatever the park dimensions were, all of Ruth's opponents played in those SAME parks. And he was still miles better than ALL of them. Much moreso than Barry is, relative to his peers.

...

From 1918-1931, Babe Ruth led the league in OPS in every full season he played. Bonds has led the league 6 times........... not even close to the 13 Babe had. And they've both played roughly the same amount of games.


Comparing Ruth and Bonds to their peers is a little faulty as well. Ruth was a big fish in a small pond. Bonds is a big fish in a big pond. The talent pool in Ruth's day was much smaller. So many more people play professional baseball these days that this is not a good argument.


btw - isn't it time to drop the Loaiza watch? 4.77 ERA, 1.41 WHIP - ouch
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Postby Madison » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:07 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:btw - isn't it time to drop the Loaiza watch? 4.77 ERA, 1.41 WHIP - ouch


Hehe. Current era is 5.01. :-D Jackal's been a bit behind. Hehehe :-b .
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Postby wkelly91 » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:51 pm

GSes wrote:Its hard to say. 2 diffrent Era's.

I for one believe you take the year Ted williams hit 400 and you put him at that age into the league this year or next, no way he hits 400.

Babe Ruth would he be as great as he was then as he is now?

I don't know, but I don't think so

Im going to go with Barry Bonds, but its imposible to compare them.


Things to consider:

Babe didn't play with minorities.
Babe played in a much smaller league.
Babe played in huge stadiums.
Babe lost his 1st five years of batting due to pitching.
Bonds has benefited by much smaller stadiums.
Bonds has benefitted from weaker pitching.
Bonds has benefitted from better training technology.

Bonds may have been faster but Babe still stole 123 bags.
Babe had a career ave of .342 with a peak of .393 (league ave was .282 that year)

The Babe changed the game in a way only a few professional athletes ever have, Wilt Chamberlain comes to mind.

Add to that that the Babe won more games as a pitcher over a three year span than many current hall of fame pitchers (Steve Carlton, Don Sutton, Tom Seaver, Gaylord Perry, Warren Spahn, etc.). He lead the league in ERA, and shutouts one year. He had a 94-46 record with a 2.28 era for his career!

Has there eveer been another player with that kind of talent? Has any other player ever made such a transition in mid-career and been as dominating?

Bonds is phenominal, but the Babe is still the best ;-D
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:42 am

Mookie4ever wrote:Saying that you are counting runs so SB don't matter is like saying that SLG doesn't matter and a triple is the same as a single because you are counting RBIs and counting RBIs and SLG would be redundant.


Yes, counting RBI and SLG is redundant. RBI are team dependant and a bad way to rate players anyway.

If you want a good comparison, look at runs created and stolen base runs. SB's are good, and obviously help teams score more runs when done successfully (around 67% and up is considered helpful I believe). So that obviously makes up for some of the deficit Bonds has on Babe in the RC department (Babe averaged 178 RC per season while Barry averaged 142 RC per season). How much do the SB's help? Barry's SB's would give him about 4 extra runs created per season. He's still 32 RC per season behind Babe........ he'd need to steal 2700 bases this season without getting caught once in order to match Babe in Runs Created + SB Runs per season. Obviously I'm making it extreme saying he'd have to do it all in one season, but that should give you an idea of how insigificant SB's are when comparing these two guys.

You also have to consider the different eras...... the league OPS when Ruth played was .753 and it was .736 when Barry played. If we increase Barry's RC + SBR per season by the same margin that the league OPS in his era was worse than Babe's, he's at 149 while Babe is still at 178. Barry also had the benefit of a better home park to hit in. No matter how you twist it.... Babe helped his team a LOT more than Barry helped his. Maybe Barry has the same intangible as Jeter has, which makes him better than his stats suggest ;-7
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Postby wrveres » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:27 am

LBJackal wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:Saying that you are counting runs so SB don't matter is like saying that SLG doesn't matter and a triple is the same as a single because you are counting RBIs and counting RBIs and SLG would be redundant.


Yes, counting RBI and SLG is redundant. RBI are team dependant and a bad way to rate players anyway.

If you want a good comparison, look at runs created and stolen base runs. SB's are good, and obviously help teams score more runs when done successfully (around 67% and up is considered helpful I believe). So that obviously makes up for some of the deficit Bonds has on Babe in the RC department (Babe averaged 178 RC per season while Barry averaged 142 RC per season). How much do the SB's help? Barry's SB's would give him about 4 extra runs created per season. He's still 32 RC per season behind Babe........ he'd need to steal 2700 bases this season without getting caught once in order to match Babe in Runs Created + SB Runs per season. Obviously I'm making it extreme saying he'd have to do it all in one season, but that should give you an idea of how insigificant SB's are when comparing these two guys.

You also have to consider the different eras...... the league OPS when Ruth played was .753 and it was .736 when Barry played. If we increase Barry's RC + SBR per season by the same margin that the league OPS in his era was worse than Babe's, he's at 149 while Babe is still at 178. Barry also had the benefit of a better home park to hit in. 8-o No matter how you twist it.... Babe helped his team a LOT more than Barry helped his. Maybe Barry has the same intangible as Jeter has, which makes him better than his stats suggest ;-7



More Fuzzy Logic ... ?

Might I add that Babe was surrounded by .300 hitters for most of his career. In some cases even .350 hitters. Heck the whole team was close to .300 in some cases. This caused the Babe to see a ton of quality pitches.

Barry is lucky to see one pitch a game!

RC cannot explain away everything ....
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Postby LBJackal » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:33 am

Babe had a higher BB/AB rate than Barry did.......... so that doesn't really hold too much water either. I have a hard time believing that Babe walked more often and simultaneously saw significantly better pitches than Barry did :-?
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Postby wkelly91 » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:03 am

wrveres wrote:More Fuzzy Logic ... ?

Might I add that Babe was surrounded by .300 hitters for most of his career. In some cases even .350 hitters. Heck the whole team was close to .300 in some cases. This caused the Babe to see a ton of quality pitches.
Barry is lucky to see one pitch a game!

RC cannot explain away everything ....


Not entirely accurate. The Babe played for half his career on teams with no power and moderate average till Lou Gehrig showed up.
Below I've listed the Yankees ave. followed by the league ave. Notice how when Gehrig shows up the team ave. goes up significantly, but the Babe hit almost the same exact ammount of homers before Gehrig showed up as after in roughly the same time frame.
Babe
1919 .261 .268 (.07) .322-29-114
1920 .280 .283 (.03) .376-54-137
1921 .300 .292 .08 .378-59-171
1922 .287 .284 .03 .315-35-99
1923 .291 .282 .09 .393-41-131
1924 .289 .290 (.01) .378-46-121
1925 .275 .292 (.17) .290-25-66
1926 .289 .281 .08 .372-47-145
1927 .307 .285 .22 .356-60-164 Gehrigs 1st .373-47-175
1928 .296 .281 .15 .323-54-142
1929 .295 .284 .09 .345-46-154
1930 .309 .288 .21 .359-49-153
1931 .297 .278 .19 .373-46-163
1932 .286 .276 .10 .341-41-137
1933 .283 .273 .10 .301-34-103
1934 .278 .278 .00 .288-22-84

Th Babe wasn't surrounded by great hitter his whole career. He was simply the greatest. ;-D
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