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This could help the Red Sox maybe??

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Postby nsulham » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:13 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:Sorry you are upset. Ill try to be more caring ok? Its all cool?


You don't have to be more caring, just don't be an ass about it. I understand you're excited about the deal and rightfully so. Just no need for the "You got raped" and "We bent the Sox over on this one" stuff.

You don't even know that Nomar's not a rent-a-player for this year. His heart's set on the west coast. Yes, the Tribune has a ton of money but when have they been known to use that resource?

Like I said though, great move.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:17 pm

We also dont know if he is a rent-a-player. Sorry i acted a little brashly, apology accepted?
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Postby nsulham » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:26 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:We also dont know if he is a rent-a-player. Sorry i acted a little brashly, apology accepted?


Yep, not a problem at all. Like I said, you have every right to be happy, just dial it back a bit that's all.
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Postby thetongueofire » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:41 pm

arent Ramirez and Clement FA's next year ??? the loss of Gonzales and Alou's contract might be barely enough to sign both of them.. so considering that fact that he wont take anything less than a 16 mil 5-6 years long term deal signing Nomar wont be a walk in the park for you guys. ;-)

anyways, i think it was a very good deal for the Cubs. theyre prolly now the most complete team in baseball barring injuries. if they make the playoffs, they'll be one of the faves to win it all imo. but you also gave up a couple of pretty good prospects there...

i guess only time will tell if the Cubs "raped" the Red Sox. but i dont think any of the four teams were "raped".
[size=10]Manny Ramirez....$20 million
Pedro Martinez....$17.5 million
Curt Schilling...$12 million (and a $2 million bonus)
Never hearing a Yankee fan chant 1918 again...priceless. [/size]
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Postby ramble2 » Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:07 pm

I think Slow Pitch is right.

It's important to distinguish between two things:

1. Did the Red Sox get a fair return for Nomar?

2. Did the Red Sox improve their team in this trade?

Slow Pitch didn't say anything about #1. Could the Sox have used another pitcher? Absolutely. Would Clement have been a nice addition to BOS? Of course!

But let's leave that aside. What about #2? Did the Red Sox improve themselves?

I think they did, and for the reasons Slow Pitch mentioned (give or take). They get a nice defensive upgrade in the IF. I find it difficult to assess defensive ability, but from most accounts Cabrera is a very good defensive SS, whereas Nomar is an average-to-good defensive SS. Mientkiewicz is a huge defensive upgrade at 1B.

This does force the Sox to play Millar in the OF, and relegates Ortiz to the DH. This also means that Manny won't see the DH much at all. But Roberts isn't a bad addition. It's a bit strange, but it does add depth to their bench. He can be a defensive replacement, in the right situation, and can be used as a pinch-runner or sparkplug when they need speed on the basepaths.

There's something else to notice, a larger trend. Beane made moves in the off-season to upgrade the A's defense (contrary to the Moneyball storyline). Now we see another sabre-guy in Theo moving to upgrade his slugging team's defense. Is this a coincidence? Or have these guys been re-evaluating defense in their grand schemes? Something to consider ... and to watch for again in the off-season.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:24 am

Slow Pitch wrote:Orlando was disinterested in being Montreal this year.
In 2001 I think he made 2 errors all year at SS.


I'd heard this as well. If Cabrera can hit a bit more and hold things down w/ his glove, I think that this may not be as lopsided as it looks. On Baseball Tonight, one of the guys also pointed out that having a real 1B, instead of 'punting' defense there will tighten up the whole infield which will be a big help for the team.

And, unsuprisingly, Theo looked REALLY confident in the clip from the press conference.
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Postby thehat » Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:37 am

Two quick comments, just to join this thread.

One is that Boston got a HUGE defensive upgrade. Nomar's range was on the wane even before this year, and with the heel problem he is really limited. OCab is a huge add for a team that needs defense. Ditto for Mientkiewicz at 1B where Ortiz/Millar are hopelessly inadequate. (Fielding pct. doesn't mean much at any spot, but it's probably least meaningful at 1B. I can recall Ken Harrelson posting back to back 1.000's if I'm not mistaken, and he's one of the worst defenders of all time.)

I love this trade for the Red Sox, and I also think it made great sense for the Cubs and Twins as well. Fans of all three teams should immediately send "thank you" notes to Omar Minaya, who got a fringe big league IF and a pitcher who completely unimpresses me. Way to go, Expos.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:51 am

CubsFan7724 wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:
CubsFan7724 wrote:
Amazinz wrote:
CubsFan7724 wrote:
KPucks wrote:I sure hope you're right, but I can't get the uneasy feeling in my stomach and the voice screaming in my head "HOW THE F*** DIDN'T THEY GET CLEMENT" to go away :~(
Easy. Hendry told him they weren't going to trade Clement, and then the Red Sox were too desperate to unload Nomar and he pounced, then got him for peanuts. Another awesome trade by Hendry! Oh and we bent over the Red Sox.

The Cubs didn't bend over the Red Sox. They got Cabrera and Doug M. for a player who wasn't going to resign with them. I am surprised they didn't go after a pitcher but I don't think it's a bad trade. Luckily the Cubs didn't give up much because they get a two-month rental that they will most likely not resign.
How can you know he won't resign? We will have some free space, we got out of A Gons 5.75 million contract, and next year we wont have Alou either. That gives us some money to resign him. Plus the Trib has bottomless pockets to resign him. We wont know until the offseason because Hendry doesn't resign players during the season. Well, enjoy Dougy M and Cabrera. We'll enjoy your superstar shortstop, your first round pick from last year, and some extra cash you gave us. Thanks Red Sox ;-D


If you can afford $16 mill/5-6 years, then, ya, you can resign him. I don't think we were "raped", but I do agree you got the better end. I'll be rooting for Nomar, so be good to him in Chicago.
The Tribune is far richer then Steinbrenner, if they want to spend it they can easily resign Nomar. Theres no reason not to, they pack that stadium everyday and make tons of money off of it.


I won't deny that the Cubs have the $$ but the question is whether they will spend it. Recent memory dictates that although they have been spending more, they have have short arms and deep pockets.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:14 am

I'd say that the difference in the money is that Steinbrenner's money= the Yankee's money but the Tribune does not just toss money at the Cubs since, of course, there appears to be inelastic demand for Cubs' tix and they don't have to. It will be iteresting to see how hard they try to keep Nomar. I would think that they may go for it but there may be some competition.

I WOULD like to see whatever numbers Theo E was crunching that made him think that this was a solution to their 'biggest problem'.
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Postby LBJackal » Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:41 am

AcidRock23 wrote:I'd say that the difference in the money is that Steinbrenner's money= the Yankee's money but the Tribune does not just toss money at the Cubs since, of course, there appears to be inelastic demand for Cubs' tix and they don't have to.


Good point. I've always thought that about the Cubs. They have inelastic demand, so as long as they have a star they'll draw the max amount of fans and support. Sosa was that star for the past decade, now it's Prior's turn. And it doens't hurt that Sosa is still there....... unfortunately to me it seems like they don't want to spend what they have to be better, because they would lose the novelty of "we never win, but we have great players and it's gonna be REALLY FUN once we do win". The publicity they get based on being good but never winning is more over a span of years than it would be if they won once and didn't make the playoffs for a couple years. Hell, look at the Jays. They went WAY downhill after they won back to back World Series.

I never thought I'd be using a term from my macroeconomics lectures in the Cafe..... :-b (The term was "inelastic demand", for those with the memory of a goldfish)
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