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Phil Rizzuto...Hall of Famer???

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Postby LCBOY » Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:24 pm

Rirruto wrote:
LCBOY wrote:James basically concluded that Rizzuto doesn't belong in the HoF but he is FAR FROM THE WORST PLAYER in the HoF!!! All of the bad picks have come from the Veteran's Committee. There are probably about 40 players in the HoF that can't really be considered "great" players.


How do you think the Vet Committee justifies themeselves for electing these players will less than stellar statistics and accomplishments? I can think of one player who's stats weren't the best of the best but got voted in by the veterans, Larry Doby; the first African American to play in the American League. He had good stats but didn't really warrant a HoF enshrinement, at least as a player. He got voted in more because of all the adversity he went through and the courage that he showed for playing through all the hatred and racism he received through America. I gues the Veteran's Committee is more leniant on the stats side of things when electing people for the Hall.


Doby is NOT the typical Verteran's Committe choice. He was voted in mainly because he was the first black player in the AL. Also, Doby was a better player thna you might think. Per 162 games he averaged:

.283/.386/.490, 27 HRs, 103 RBIs, 101 runs, 92 BBs

He was a 7 time All-Star and finished 2nd in the 1954 AL MVP voting and he was only of the leaders of the great Cleveland teams of the late 1940s-early1950s.

Just by objective analysis he falls just short of a HoF career but he was dominant at times in his career. He was considered one of the best players at times in his career.

The Veteran's Committee for many years was 12 men who voted in secret. It was/is prone to a lot of crony-ism, favoritism, etc. Just take a look at the some of the names in the HoF. The absolute worst where the players voted in in the late 60s- early 70s. James writes about this in his book.
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Postby Rirruto » Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:28 pm

LCBOY wrote:The Veteran's Committee for many years was 12 men who voted in secret. It was/is prone to a lot of crony-ism, favoritism, etc. Just take a look at the some of the names in the HoF. The absolute worst where the players voted in in the late 60s- early 70s. James writes about this in his book.


I thought the committee was comprimised of all the living HoFers? That book you are referring to sounds very interesting, I'll have to check it out sometime
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Postby Amazinz » Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:32 pm

Compared to his peers at the time he played Rizzuto doesn't look all that bad. He would have been a Gold Glover (had it existed and derservingly so), he was a league MVP, he was an excellent hitter for his time (the career BA is deceiving) and a great base-stealer (72%) despite having average speed (or so I've read).
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Postby LCBOY » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:10 pm

Rirruto wrote:
LCBOY wrote:The Veteran's Committee for many years was 12 men who voted in secret. It was/is prone to a lot of crony-ism, favoritism, etc. Just take a look at the some of the names in the HoF. The absolute worst where the players voted in in the late 60s- early 70s. James writes about this in his book.


I thought the committee was comprimised of all the living HoFers? That book you are referring to sounds very interesting, I'll have to check it out sometime


The current system has only been in place since I believe the late 1990s. Before that there was a Veteran's Committee of 12 men made up of mostly former players, managers, coaches, writers. They'd meet once a year and vote. What happens is that soem of these men have such strong biases for they players of their era over everyone else. The committee in the late 60s-early 70s were made of peeople that played or covered baseball in the 20s-30s. They made a series of just awful selections that are beyond absurd. The 20s-30s is far over-represented in the HoF, while the players from the 60-early 70s keep getting shafted. Players like Ron Santo and Joe Torre had HoF quality careers as players and still they wait.
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Postby Precise » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:37 pm

Rirruto wrote:
LCBOY wrote:James basically concluded that Rizzuto doesn't belong in the HoF but he is FAR FROM THE WORST PLAYER in the HoF!!! All of the bad picks have come from the Veteran's Committee. There are probably about 40 players in the HoF that can't really be considered "great" players.


How do you think the Vet Committee justifies themeselves for electing these players will less than stellar statistics and accomplishments? I can think of one player who's stats weren't the best of the best but got voted in by the veterans, Larry Doby; the first African American to play in the American League. He had good stats but didn't really warrant a HoF enshrinement, at least as a player. He got voted in more because of all the adversity he went through and the courage that he showed for playing through all the hatred and racism he received through America. I gues the Veteran's Committee is more leniant on the stats side of things when electing people for the Hall.


Larry Doby isnt a good example because players like him deserve a spot in the Hall of Fame just because of the impact he had on the game. The fact that he was actually a very good player (of course i only know thu 2nd hand accounts) probably just made it easier to enshrine him. Stats aren't everything... and in the cases of people like jackie robinson and doby, they arent even the most relevant factor.
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Postby Rirruto » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:46 pm

Precise wrote:Larry Doby isnt a good example because players like him deserve a spot in the Hall of Fame just because of the impact he had on the game. The fact that he was actually a very good player (of course i only know thu 2nd hand accounts) probably just made it easier to enshrine him. Stats aren't everything... and in the cases of people like jackie robinson and doby, they arent even the most relevant factor.


That's what I said:

He got voted in more because of all the adversity he went through and the courage that he showed for playing through all the hatred and racism he received through America.
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Postby LCBOY » Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:29 am

Precise wrote:
Rirruto wrote:
LCBOY wrote:James basically concluded that Rizzuto doesn't belong in the HoF but he is FAR FROM THE WORST PLAYER in the HoF!!! All of the bad picks have come from the Veteran's Committee. There are probably about 40 players in the HoF that can't really be considered "great" players.


How do you think the Vet Committee justifies themeselves for electing these players will less than stellar statistics and accomplishments? I can think of one player who's stats weren't the best of the best but got voted in by the veterans, Larry Doby; the first African American to play in the American League. He had good stats but didn't really warrant a HoF enshrinement, at least as a player. He got voted in more because of all the adversity he went through and the courage that he showed for playing through all the hatred and racism he received through America. I gues the Veteran's Committee is more leniant on the stats side of things when electing people for the Hall.


Larry Doby isnt a good example because players like him deserve a spot in the Hall of Fame just because of the impact he had on the game. The fact that he was actually a very good player (of course i only know thu 2nd hand accounts) probably just made it easier to enshrine him. Stats aren't everything... and in the cases of people like jackie robinson and doby, they arent even the most relevant factor.


Jackie and Doby had pretty good numbers. Jackie, especially, only played 10 years and had

.311 career BA
1518 hits
1947 Rookie of the Year
1949 NL MVP
6 100+ runs scored seasons (plus a 99 runs score season)
6 30+ doubles seasons

His 1949 MVP season he went:

.342/.432/.528, 124 RBIs, 122 R, 16 HRs, 38 doubles, 203 hits!

That's a huge year for anyone let alone a 2B. What would that be worth in fantasy baseball today?

He is one of the greatest 2B of all time depsite the late start. Plus being the first African-American in the ML helped his cause. If Jackie, or Doby, would have been just an average or mediocre players they would not have been voted into the HoF.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:57 am

LBJackal wrote:Jeter seems to be Rizzuto Revisited.

Bad defensively, good OBA but not much power, and thriving off the success of his teammates. We all know Jeter will make it into the Hall because he was on a bunch of good teams, but at least his career BA is .317, a lot better than the .273 Rizzuto had. There's no way Scooter could have been worse defensively though, is there?


What about when Jeter gets 3,000 hits??

Maybe the Scooter got in because of his announcing as well. Aren't there announcers in the HOF??
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Postby LBJackal » Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:19 am

Jeter's hitting is good, no doubt. And if he gets 3,000 hits, he'll be in good shape for the HOF. But I'm thinking even if he doesn't get 3,000, he'll make the Hall based on the positive stigma around him in the media. His defense surely has to put him behind others like Nomar, Tejada (if he can keep it up), etc.

Based on his offense, he's a shoe-in though. Great BA and a surprisingly high OPS. Not nearly as high as Nomar or A-Rod, but 50 points hgher than Tejada. If all the SS's can continue the way they're playing now (the big 4 in the AL - I consider A-Rod a SS since Jeter is out of position and doubt A-Rod will be kept at 3B) then I still see Jeter as the last of the 4. Offensively Nomar and A-Rod are better, and defensively all 3 all much better. And if Tejada can continue hitting like he has the past 3 years he'll give Jeter 4th place in both defense and offense....... which is why I have trouble giving him a HOF nomination just because he crosses the 3,000 hit plateau. There's so much more to consider.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:57 am

Depending on how you look at it, fortunately or unfortunately, unless you are a defensive whiz at your position, it is the offensive numbers that usually get you in the Hall. :-?
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