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making an exibition game "count" is stupid

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making an exibition game "count" is stupid

Postby George_Foreman » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:30 am

i don't know if this has been hashed over many time here already, but since there isn't a thread about it that i could see, i figured i might as well say my piece. so here goes.

obviously, the all-star game is supposed to be a game where we showcase not only the best players in baseball, but also the best players from each team in baseball. the game is for the fans, and frankly, it's cool. where else would we (almost) see an outfield that had 3 500 hr guys? and it's a chance for great players from smaller-market, less-liked teams to get some national face time, which is great, imo.

and that's why there are all sorts of unofficial "rules" attatched to the game: got to have a player from every team, gotta make sure every player gets to play. well, maybe not every pitcher, but most of 'em for sure!

but now, it "counts". this for-the-fans game now has implications that effect the outcome of the season in a very real, very tangible way. and since the managers went to the WS the previous year, there's naturally an incentive to try to make your team win in order to secure your team's possible home field advantage in the WS.

so this naturally puts managers in quite a fix. they touched on this on baseball tonight: it's an exibition game, but do you walkt barry bonds if pitching to him could mean you lose home field advantage?? most managers naturally would not pitch to him. but we put unfair pressure on these managers to manage the game poorly in such a way that satasfies the fans. After all, who doesn't want to see matchups like bonds vs. mulder or bonds vs. rivera? that's GREAT fun to watch!

whats more, putting the best team on the field would naturally mean not necessarily picking one player from each team and playing every player. and by being presured to pitch to hitters even when it could cost you a game 7 at home when it matters the most, the managers are asked to make poor decisions.

this all stems from the AS game a couple years back when bud selig made the CORRECT decision of calling the game before pitchers blew their arms out because managers had used up every player on their roster. (actually, i think they should've just put some short stop on the mound to lob fastballs up there for a few innings. but i definetly don't think they should've forced the pitchers to keep playing). in response for being unfairly blaimed for this, selig did something very dumb: he made an exibition game count.

by giving managers some incentive to try to win and plan for extra-inning games, selig hoped to avoid the AS game tie problem. but all that he did was to put managers in a REALLY tough spot, asking them to play baseball by different rules.

it was arbitrary before, and that's how it should stay. as it is, managers can effect the outcome by managing the game in a way that is not the way fans want to see it played. they also get pressure to play inferior players just so that everyone can get in the game.

oh, and fans decided the starting lineup for a game with major implications. FANS help decide where the WS is played... what a load of crap.

make the AS game exibition or make it count, but don't try to have it both ways.
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Re: making an exibition game "count" is stupid

Postby josebach » Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:45 am

George_Foreman wrote:i don't know if this has been hashed over many time here already, but since there isn't a thread about it that i could see, i figured i might as well say my piece. so here goes.


I don't know how you could have missed a four page thread with almost the exact same title.

http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/foru ... hp?t=77790


Where it may not be perfect, overall, it's good for the game. More people like it than don't, so the only thing they can do is try to please the majority of the fans. It really can't get any simpler than that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/allstar04 ... id=1839276

Famous quote (not sure who said it) "You can please all of the people some of the time and you can please some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

What do the people do that aren't pleased?... They Bitch about it.
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Postby mikcou » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:06 am

I agree baseball is going to do what is going to bring in the most viewers so they can make the most money from it.
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Postby great gretzky » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:10 am

i fail to see how it is anymore dumb than the "every other year" model -- does that reward the best team. this is a fun compromise.
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Postby George_Foreman » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:32 pm

I don't know how you could have missed a four page thread with almost the exact same title.


whoops. i dunno, maybe it wasn't on the first page... guess i shoulda ran a search. anyways...


i fail to see how it is anymore dumb than the "every other year" model -- does that reward the best team. this is a fun compromise.


GG- it's because it is no longer arbitrary. now, managers are asked to make decisions that, while potentially good for their team winning the game, could be stuff that fans don't like. walking barry is just one "for instance" you can come up with. by making the game matter, managers have an incentive to manage to win rather than to please the fans and give the players a good time (by playing all of them).

the AS game is to please the fans. let's leave it that way, mmkay?
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Postby kaz » Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:00 pm

Well -- I don't see a problem with it. What's wrong with giving players a reason to play the game? I understand where you're coming from, the players should play the game not for themselves but for the fans.
"They invented the All-Star Game for Willie Mays." -Ted Williams
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:03 pm

You realize that most of the players in know they have no chance at getting to the WS and will not try as hard? They still dont play very hard even though it counts. If you want to see them try, give the players from the winning leagues all star game a cash bonus.
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Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:25 pm

Cash bonus is a good idea (or maybe split the hitters from the losing team up and make them all play for the Expos, Royals, D-Backs, Mariners, and Pirates. Also, put all the losing pichers in Coors and force the Rockies to play every game at home. That would make people try ;-D ).
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Postby Ajax » Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:59 pm

This horse has pretty much been beaten to death, so we might as well start eating it. Some random thoughts on having the all-star game "count":

1. I think the players already try their best to win. Cash incentives isn't going to make them try harder. Plus, on average, they already make 8 trillion dollars per game. How much cash would it take to make them try harder? The problem is, managers aren't expected to manage the game like it "counts", and fans don't want to see the game managed that way either.

2. I bet the Royals' Ken Harvey is pretty excited about the AL having homefield in the WS this year.

3. Since Randy Johnson has been rumored to be going to a contender in the AL (NY,Boston, or Anaheim), would he even want the NL team to have home field advantage?

4. Is there even one person on this planet that used to not watch the game, that started watching it because "now it counts"? No, there's not. Not one.

5. Whether it counts or not, MLB's all-star game is still 1000 times better than the Pro-Bowl. That's the game that's in need of some serious help.
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Postby great gretzky » Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:03 pm

i persoanlly think, even though it will never happen is that there should be no such thing as home field advantage for the championship. the first four games are split at each ball park -- to reward their fans. then the final three games played at a neutral site.
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