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Postby Baseballer02 » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:31 pm

First off, the post was sarcastic, it was the view at which your statement was aimed at. True, you're statement didn't directly say it, but it seemed like you were saying Larry Bowa has nothing to do with how the Phillies performed, so that statement could move right along to other teams/managers. While I do believe Jimy Williams is part of the problem in the Astros organization, I didn't say it was a fact, but I believe most of the cafe also shared my opinion that Williams is a horrible manager. Perhaps I took your statement out of proportion, but you also did the same with mine.
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Postby Lofunzo » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:56 am

Baseballer02 wrote:
WhiteHot wrote:
beltrans_boy wrote:
WhiteHot wrote:
Philly22 wrote:Bowa is a bad bad manager. :-t


Because he got thrown out?


No, because the Phillies are only a game in first place in the league's weakest division.

:-t


And that is the manager's fault...how?


Well if you wanna look at it that way, why is the Astros struggles Jimy Williams' fault, why was Bob Brenly fired if the Dbacks struggles weren't his fault? Hell if the manager's don't matter at all, why even have them?


The A's and the Red Sox don't. Everyone knows that the front offices of each team are pulling the puppet strings there. ;-)
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Postby Philly22 » Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:01 pm

Copied from another board, much more eloquent then I can express but the point is clear:

1. We know that Bowa isn't the world's best field manager. He may not be the worst, but I don't think anyone's arguing that he's exceptionally good at it.

2. We know that Bowa has problems getting along with players, and that many players are unhappy about playing for him. Current players, naturally, don't express this sentiment (though in general they don't seem to strongly dispute it) but former players have.

So, if Bowa isn't great at field managing or interpersonal relationships, what does he bring to the table? What's usually presented as his key asset is his burning desire to win. He certainly has that, but so what? That's meaningless unless it somehow translates to the team he manages. And I think we've seen enough over the past two years to demonstrate that Bowa's will to win isn't enough to build a winning team.

If you disregard Bowa's will to win, what's left? As far as I can tell, just the shiny veneer of 1980. And I don't think that's enough.
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Postby WhiteHot » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:03 pm

Philly22 wrote:1. We know that Bowa isn't the world's best field manager. He may not be the worst, but I don't think anyone's arguing that he's exceptionally good at it.

2. We know that Bowa has problems getting along with players, and that many players are unhappy about playing for him. Current players, naturally, don't express this sentiment (though in general they don't seem to strongly dispute it) but former players have.

So, if Bowa isn't great at field managing or interpersonal relationships, what does he bring to the table? What's usually presented as his key asset is his burning desire to win. He certainly has that, but so what? That's meaningless unless it somehow translates to the team he manages. And I think we've seen enough over the past two years to demonstrate that Bowa's will to win isn't enough to build a winning team.

If you disregard Bowa's will to win, what's left? As far as I can tell, just the shiny veneer of 1980. And I don't think that's enough.


All hearsay. The only person that publicly had problems with Bowa was Rolen, so he was traded (none of the fans really liked Rolen either). To say that Bowa has problems with his players is simply hearsay. Did you see Thome, Milton, and Bowa give Perez a pie in the face?

Also, who says that Bowa is a bad field manager? Seems like more hearsay. I'm getting really tired of someone saying something, and then have something else regurgitate it as fact. Tell me, who doesn't Bowa get along with? How many players don't like him? Why would you say he's bad at interpersonal relationships?

Those statements from that board contain no fact whatsoever.
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Postby matmat » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:22 pm

I get the impression that aside from thome and abreu, everyone else in that lineup is given the "hit or sit" ultimatum. That can't be good for morale.
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Postby Philly22 » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:03 pm

How about pitching Wagner on four straight days?
How about declaring to the media that he would never pitch his $9 million closer before the 9th inning?
How about pitching rookie Ryan Madson in relief for over 50 innings before the All-Star Break?
How about pitching Rheal Cormier (coming off a career year) as a lefty specialist because Bowa doesn't have one otherwise?

But all managers can be shaky with their bullpen usage, everything is easy in hindsight. Not a strength of his though.

What about dealing with players? Not good, I don't know what kind of evidence you would want?
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/ ... 51610.html

Ok so he's not particulary good with players or bullpen management, how about dealing with the media? I don't think I even need to bother with that aspect.

There is no benefit to Philly keeping Larry Bowa as manager, you tell me otherwise ;-)
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