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Postby SaintsOfTheDiamond » Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:47 pm

blankman wrote:
mythigh wrote:yeah and schilling has had the better season too....


That's debatable. K's are overrated in real baseball. An out is an out.


Thank you!! :-D
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Postby Amazinz » Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:28 pm

slomo007 wrote:Is it just me, or is run support perhaps the most underrated stat in existence? It should be listed on every starting pitchers' stat sheet, right next to ERA. Even though they can't really control it, it definitely should be noted more often.

Yeah it's there. It's called Wins. :-D
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:00 pm

blankman wrote:
mythigh wrote:
yeah and schilling has had the better season too....


That's debatable. K's are overrated in real baseball. An out is an out.


Thank you!!


This whole line of thought is irrelevant. If there is anyway to quantify one against the other, it is in the K ratios. That is the only way to distinguish between the two in terms of performance. The other categories are too close. Thus, this works only to preserve any arguments that the two are a wash, not to give an advantage to Mulder.

If you want my opinion, I say that if you want to go ahead and dismiss Ks altogether, which is pretty much fine by me, then look at the park factor. To say nothing of the ENORMOUS foul ground in NAC compared to the MINIMAL foul ground in Boston, it's much harder to be effective in Fenway, as it would be in Minute Maid when people are putting the ball in play consistently.

Schilling is the better pitcher and the better story, and I would think that he would be the better sentimental choice. I still haven't heard one coherent argument for Mulder other than that he has 2 more CGs, and again, it is much easier to keep your pitch count down when you get a lot more cheap outs in NAC.

Ks being overrated isn't an argument for Mulder, it's a near useless rebuttal to an argument for Schilling.
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Postby mikemcj55 » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:07 pm

I offered a very detailed analysis of the numbers supporting Mulder over Schilling above. While the ballpark differntial may be an advantage for Schilling, I pose Mulder's lower opponent's BA than Schilling to counteract that.
I would also like to say that Mulder has a lower era on the road than at home, so its not his park that is making the difference. In addition, Schilling has a much lower era at home than on the road. If the two parks are as respectively pitcher and hitter friendly as you say, then these figures should be reversed
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:29 pm

The numbers you offered, though well presented, really don't offer much at all in the way of determining one pitcher's effectiveness over the other.

Actually, while Mulder's Opp BA is 12 points lower than Schilling's, Schilling maintains a better WHIP. That means he's walking less hitters. Incidentally it means that there's a significant discrepancy in K/BB ratio, in which Schilling has the advantage. Thus the Opp BA is only half the story, and a half that, in spite of being in Mulder's advantage, doesn't make up for the whole story, which is that Schilling allows fewer baserunners in spite of allowing a higher batting average. Mulder (1.16 WHIP) has issued 38 BBs this year to Schilling's (1.12 WHIP) 21.

As for the park factor, just because Mulder has had more success on the road, and Schilling has had less, doesn;'t take away from the fact that Schilling still faces a greater challenge when he steps on the hill at Fenway than Mulder does when he steps on the hill at NAC. In fact, it's really too small a sample size to attach much merit to any of these numbers in the first place. I won't penalize Mulder for excelling on the road anymore than you ought to penalize Schilling for excelling at home. The fact is, that each faces a different set of challenges each time they take the mound. The numbers, in total, still carry out that Schilling has been more effective, though, your most valid argument is in strength of matchups, but over the course of the half season, it really hasn't been all THAT much stronger a schedule.

Basically, it is almost entirely pointless to argue for one against the other, as they have both been great. I just think that the biggest difference, numbers wise, as irrelevant as it may be, is in the Ks.

Schilling is the bigger name and the older and more well known player, so I think he deserves the nod this year, but they are probably too close to really have any kind of decisive opinion.[/i]
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Postby blankman » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:30 pm

Opponent BA is also not a very good stat IMO. If a guy doesn't give up a lot of hits, but walks a ton, you don't see that in opponent BA.
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Postby Amazinz » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:39 pm

Opponent BA is also heavily affected by the team playing behind the pitcher. Greater defensive range means lower BA and vice versa.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:46 pm

If Jeter's there anyways let him be the starting pitcher. He has just as much right to be the starting pitcher as the starting ss. ;-7
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Postby Amazinz » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:47 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:If Jeter's there anyways let him be the starting pitcher. He has just as much right to be the starting pitcher as the starting ss. ;-7

Hell just let him be the ballboy that way he gets to make all kinds of fancy catches without worrying about playing defense. :-b
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