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What is a "just cause?"

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Postby wrveres » Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:56 pm

You guys do understand that France would have never, and I do mean never, given the ok to go into Iraq .... The were on the take. Its been fricking proven. Why do you think Chirac hates GW ...


Saddam could have dropped a nuke in your backyard, and chirac still wouldn't have done anything ....


Chirac and Saddam were buddies from way back in the day

will you all at least admit to me that the UN would have never given authority, soley because of France? will you admit that?
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:01 pm

LionsandTigersOhMy wrote:What does it matter where it came from? What they said is what matters.

Did the dims not go after Saddam because they thought the intelligence was bad? Or because Bill had no guts? :-? :-?


To answer your question. Yes it was worth it! They will find the weapons. Matter of fact they have already found several Sarin filled shells. Just a matter of time. Aside from that, it was worth it to me because we will have better intelligence from now on, by being in Iraq and helping their democracy blossom!

Now you answer me a question.

1) If Saddam had no WMD's why was he defying the UN?
2) If everyone including dims say he for sure had WMD's, where are they?


1. Because he's from a culture where he cannot lose face to westerners. If he does, he loses a lot of power from his own supporters. Imagine if Bush were to admit that he was wrong to go into Iraq and that he rushed in and that he should have listened to the Liberals, who were right all along. Armchair generals who think that rushing headlong with other people's lives into battle takes "balls" would lose respect for him. And he'd have less chance of staying in power.

2. Well he obviously had WMDs - we gave them to him. There's no denying it. But apparently the Sanctions put into place by Bush Sr. and expanded by Bill Clinton worked. He destroyed them.

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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:07 pm

While I'm at it, I'm tired of republicans claiming that Clinton did nothing to fight terrorism. Here's a list I got from http://www.mikehersh.com/Clinton_vs_Ter ... nton.shtml

Bushes pre 9/11 record is near the bottom:


President Clinton led the fight against terrorism over strong opposition from Republicans in Congress and the pro-Republican Media. Here's a partial - yet incredibly long - list of accomplishments against terrorism for which the Clinton Administration gets almost no credit or even recognition. President Clinton:

-- sent legislation to Congress to TIGHTEN AIRPORT SECURITY. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

-- sent legislation to Congress to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF TERRORIST FUNDING. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

-- sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF EXPLOSIVES USED BY TERRORISTS. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.

When Republicans couldn't prevent executive action, President Clinton:

-- Developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

--Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Boston airport.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.

-- Tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

-- Brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.

-- Did not blame Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after they had left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.

-- Named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

-- Tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.

-- Detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries

-- Created a national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

-- Robert Oakley, Reagan Counterterrorism Czar says of Clinton's efforts "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama"

-- Paul Bremer, Bush's Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley saying he believed the Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden. "

-- Barton Gellman of the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."

Here, in stark contrast, is part of the Bush-Cheney anti-terrorism record before September 11, 2001:

-- Backed off Clinton administration's anti-terrorism efforts.

-- Shelved the Hart-Rudman report.

-- Appointed new anti-terrorism task force under Dick Cheney. Group did not even meet before 9/11.

-- Called for cuts in anti-terrorism efforts by the Department of Defense.

-- Gave no priority to anti-terrorism efforts by Justice Department.

-- Ignored warnings from Sandy Berger, Louis Freeh, George Tennant, Paul Bremer, and Richard Clarke about the urgency of terrorist threats.

-- Halted Predator drone tracking of Osama bin Laden.

-- Did nothing in wake of August 6 C.I.A. report to president saying Al Qaeda attack by hijack of an airliner almost certain.

-- Bush - knowing about the terrorists' plans to attack in America, warned that terrorists were in flight schools in the US - took a four week vacation.

-- By failing to order any coordination of intelligence data, missed opportunity to stop the 9/11 plot as Clinton-Gore had stopped the millennium plots.

-- Blamed President Clinton for 9/11.
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Postby LionsandTigersOhMy » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:10 pm

You guys are impossible. I am going to go wash my Hummer. Then I am going to eat a dinner of Filet Mignon cooked by my personal chef and served by my butler. Then I am gonna sit down in front of my movie screen TV and watch the Sox and Yanks in my 3000 dollar recliner that has a pelt from a Tiger that suffered horribly when I hunted it. Then I am going to go outside and spray a case of hairspray I bought with my Visa Platinum card into the air. See I had to special order the kind thats harmful to the enviroment. Then I am going to sit in glee and stair at my bank statements and health care info ( its good insurance trust me). Then I am going to watch the hobos and poor die in the streets. Then I will go downstairs and polish my collection of assault weapons. Then finally I have to send GW another check to make sure he has all the support he needs to keep this country on the right track! ;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D
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Postby wrveres » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:10 pm

Absolutely Adequate wrote:
-- Blamed President Clinton for 9/11.


link please?
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Postby wrveres » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:13 pm

actually AA I am kinda dissapointed .. Usually you post things with thought, but here you just cut n' pasted an obviouslly biased article .. I couldn't even get throught the first four, with out laughing. You know as well as I that those were probablly attached to larger bills going through congress ...
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Postby Urge » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:28 pm

Absolutely Adequate wrote:-- Developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator.


Was that the one that crippled the ability of the CIA to recruit spies for human intelligence because they were no longer allowed to deal with bad guys? Great policy.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:42 pm

wrveres wrote:Now I realize that there is Iraqi civilans that share a different philosphy about there country. Heck we have them here on this very forum. But you don't see me standing behind a school girl with my rifle at taking pot shots at a passing AA. You don't see me setting up explosives on the side of the road and setting them off, irregardless of what family is passing by. You don't see me taking reporters and stringing them up from a bridge. The simple fact that you are trying to compare a "Terrorist", yes that is what they are, to an american military man is disgusting.


WR, I don't understand your analogy, or I'm not explaining myself well.

Is AA a foreigner and one of many people that have taken over your country? If not, then your analogy doesn't work.

I don't think it's hard to see how many Iraqis wouldn't see the U.S. as liberators. Some of them might want the U.S. army out of their country. It is they who I think you miscast as terrorists.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:46 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:Is this not "nurturing the misconception"? (And I should point out that I said Bush administration, not Bush.)

BBC wrote:As recently as last Sunday, Vice-President Dick Cheney, refused to rule out a link between Iraq and 11 September, saying "'we don't know".

"We will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who've had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3118262.stm

MR. RUSSERT: The Washington Post asked the American people about Saddam Hussein, and this is what they said: 69 percent said he was involved in the September 11 attacks. Are you surprised by that?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: No. I think it’s not surprising that people make that connection.

MR. RUSSERT: But is there a connection?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: We don’t know. You and I talked about this two years ago. I can remember you asking me this question just a few days after the original attack. At the time I said no, we didn’t have any evidence of that. Subsequent to that, we’ve learned a couple of things. We learned more and more that there was a relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the ’90s, that it involved training, for example, on BW and CW, that al-Qaeda sent personnel to Baghdad to get trained on the systems that are involved. The Iraqis providing bomb-making expertise and advice to the al-Qaeda organization.

We know, for example, in connection with the original World Trade Center bombing in ’93 that one of the bombers was Iraqi, returned to Iraq after the attack of ’93. And we’ve learned subsequent to that, since we went into Baghdad and got into the intelligence files, that this individual probably also received financing from the Iraqi government as well as safe haven.

Now, is there a connection between the Iraqi government and the original World Trade Center bombing in ’93? We know, as I say, that one of the perpetrators of that act did, in fact, receive support from the Iraqi government after the fact. With respect to 9/11, of course, we’ve had the story that’s been public out there. The Czechs alleged that Mohamed Atta, the lead attacker, met in Prague with a senior Iraqi intelligence official five months before the attack, but we’ve never been able to develop anymore of that yet either in terms of confirming it or discrediting it. We just don’t know.

MR. RUSSERT: We could establish a direct link between the hijackers of September 11 and Saudi Arabia.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: We know that many of the attackers were Saudi. There was also an Egyptian in the bunch. It doesn’t mean those governments had anything to do with that attack. That’s a different proposition than saying the Iraqi government and the Iraqi intelligent service has a relationship with al-Qaeda that developed throughout the decade of the ’90s. That was clearly official policy.



Cheney has since backpedaled, of course, lying about his previous claims:

Just two weeks ago, on on CNBC, the following exchange occurred between Cheney and host Gloria Borger:

Borger: Well, let’s get to Mohamed Atta for a minute because you mentioned him as well. You have said in the past that it was, quote, “pretty well confirmed.”
Cheney: No, I never said that.

Borger: OK.
Cheney: I never said that.
Borger: I think that is…
Cheney: Absolutely not. What I said was the Czech intelligence service reported after 9/11 that Atta had been in Prague on April 9 of 2001, where he allegedly met with an Iraqi intelligence official. We have never been able to confirm that nor have we been able to knock it down.


But on December 9, 2001. Cheney told NBC News’ Tim Russert this:

Cheney: Well, what we now have that’s developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that–it’s been pretty well confirmed that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack. Now, what the purpose of that was, what transpired between them, we simply don’t know at this point, but that’s clearly an avenue that we want to pursue.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... ge=printer

Sorry for the delay, it took some research.

(AAAH, I just saw on SportsCenter that Cheney was at the Yankee game, with a Yankee hat on!)


Did people forget to respond to this? Or do you believe that by ignoring it, Cheney will not be a liar? This isn't a blog, this isn't a summary, this isn't from an email. These are from transcripts.
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Postby wrveres » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:11 pm

LionsandTigersOhMy wrote:You guys are impossible. I am going to go wash my Hummer. Then I am going to eat a dinner of Filet Mignon cooked by my personal chef and served by my butler. Then I am gonna sit down in front of my movie screen TV and watch the Sox and Yanks in my 3000 dollar recliner that has a pelt from a Tiger that suffered horribly when I hunted it. Then I am going to go outside and spray a case of hairspray I bought with my Visa Platinum card into the air. See I had to special order the kind thats harmful to the enviroment. Then I am going to sit in glee and stair at my bank statements and health care info ( its good insurance trust me). Then I am going to watch the hobos and poor die in the streets. Then I will go downstairs and polish my collection of assault weapons. Then finally I have to send GW another check to make sure he has all the support he needs to keep this country on the right track! ;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D ;-D


nice :-D

but you forgot .... "fire all my employees and send there jobs overseas ." ....
;-)
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