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Rivera = Cy Young

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Postby HOOTIE » Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:17 am

Urge wrote:Here's what I think the baseball writers would look at:

Vlad is the only AL guy top 5 in AVG, HR, RBI.
Manny has 2 more homers than Vlad but is lower in the others but a good margin.

Until they change the triple crown from using the big 3 it won't matter how many obscure stats Manny beats him in, Vlad will still be the MVP.


Those stats i mentioned aren't obscure. They can be easily found at ESPN.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/statistics

I agree some writers are still stuck with with a 80's mindset, that things like rbis still carries weight with some. But MLB is catching on fast. Many teams have gms or personal very well schooled in sabermetrics. Oakland, Toronto, St.Louis, Boston to name a few. Even Gammons, Stark, Kurjian are familiar with some. There are countless books, sites on the subject. Expect it to keep growing. Might as well come in and check it out.

Rbis are team dependent. Really does a injustice calling it a individual achievement. Average doesn't tell anyone how many times a batter actually got on, or made a out. Hrs are only a piec of slugging%. Why use bits and pieces when you can look at the whole big picture?
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:20 am

I was just gonna mention that, Hootie. I don't want to argue numbers because you obviously have them. I can see some voters using OPS and stats like that but question whether they will consider RC/27 or even care how many AB's a player had with RISP.
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Postby KULCAT » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:25 am

You know since were talking MVP and not fantasy MVP maybe you guys should take fielding in consideration.
Also the mindset might be changing but the triple crown still carries more wait than r/27 or runs created when it comes to awarding players
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:50 am

RBIs and Runs are team based. However Manny's lineup has been much more potent than Anaheim's. Ortiz, Damon, Bellhorn, Varitek and Millar or Guillen, Figgins, Molina, DaVannon and I don't even know who. You decide who you want.

Even without Nomar and Trot, Boston has a better lineup than Anaheim without Garrett, Glaus, Salmon and Erstad. Not to mention Kennedy and Eckstein were out for a little too.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:51 am

KULCAT wrote:You know since were talking MVP and not fantasy MVP maybe you guys should take fielding in consideration.
Also the mindset might be changing but the triple crown still carries more wait than r/27 or runs created when it comes to awarding players


Good point. Vlad is lightyears ahead of Manny as a fielder.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:52 am

For the record, let me say I do not believe Vlad is a "slam dunk," but I find it hard for anybody to argue anybody else is the MVP right now.
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Postby HOOTIE » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:23 pm

KULCAT wrote:You know since were talking MVP and not fantasy MVP maybe you guys should take fielding in consideration.
Also the mindset might be changing but the triple crown still carries more wait than r/27 or runs created when it comes to awarding players


I did with Win Shares, which has batting and fielding shares. Manny is the worst fielder of the 3, playing the least important defensive position (LF) of the 3. He is the best offensive player of the 3, but loses ground with glove. I already stated all 3 are within 1-2 Win Shares of each other. True RC/27, or Runs Created don't carry much weight. But they show who created the most.

LO True abs won't factor in vote. I brought up the RISP because Vlads lead in rbis is the basis of some in here argument for Vlad.

I already stated all 3 are a toss up. And they are. If someone makes the statement, one will win mvp by a hair, they have a case to work with. However, statements that say Vlad wins in a walk, are folks who turn a blind eye to raw data. For Vlad to be the easy MVP, Manny sure leads Vlad in alot of important catergories.
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Postby Jester » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:31 am

These are the threads that make me happy I'm a member here. A must read for those who havn't yet had the opportunity.
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Postby HOOTIE » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:20 am

Update time,

OPS

Manny 1.088
Vlad 1.015
Arod .912

Runs Created

Manny 69
Vlad 68
Arod 60

RC/27

Manny 9.50
Vlad 8.79
Arod 7.31

Win Shares

Vlad 15
Arod 15
Manny 14
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:24 am

HOOTIE wrote:Update time,

OPS

Manny 1.088
Vlad 1.015
Arod .912

Runs Created

Manny 69
Vlad 68
Arod 60

RC/27

Manny 9.50
Vlad 8.79
Arod 7.31

Win Shares

Vlad 15
Arod 15
Manny 14


Does anyone even look at those stats when calculating who the MVP is though? I don't even know what half of those things are. RBIs, Homers, Average and Runs are much more easy to understand. ;-D
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