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Tim Kurkjian's All-Time CF List

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Postby HOOTIE » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:27 pm

Speaker is one of the most underrated guys ever. Joe D and Tris are a close for the 4th and 5th slot, but i got Joe D 5th. Imo, both rank around 13-15th all time position players.

Joe D had 1,566 Runs Created in 7,176 PA, 1 every 4.58 PA
Tris had 2,176 Runs Created in 11,988 PA, 1 every 5.50 PA

Career OPS+

Tris 158
Joe D 155

Win Shares

Tris 630
Joe D 387

In defense of Joe D, he did miss 3 years (28-31), which he would have done some damage. I give Tris the edge because he basically had Joes numbers with nearly 5,000 more PA.
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Postby HOOTIE » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:38 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:Mays is #1. No question. The others, they could differ. Ty Cobb, as much of a racist bastard he was, is 2nd. then
mantle
speaker
dimaggio
snider
griffey


I won't argue Mays as best, although i like Mantle more, but both are very close. I'm probably alone on this.

Career OPS+

Mays 156
Mantle 172

Mays played longer and created more runs, but they were close.

Mantle 1 RC every 5.16 PA
Mays 1 RC every 5.32 PA

Win Shares

Mays 642
Mantle 565, not far behind, considering he had 2,600 fewer PA.

Peak years is Mantle easy

Mantle 51/49/48
Mays 43/41/40
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:40 pm

Like I said, I never knew/know alot about baseball history but I also thought Mantle was considered a better player than Mays, or at least equal.
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Postby Tavish » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:51 pm

Cobb
Mantle
Speaker
Mays
DiMaggio

The dropoff point from these 5 to the next is pretty large. Griffey I would still rank behind Snider but he can certainly move up the ladder. He needs a couple of the old Griffey years to get near the top 5.
Last edited by Tavish on Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:52 pm

If Mantle wouldn't have had bum knees and partied his life away, this wouldn't be an issue. He would have crushed everyone else. I think that Tim was talking about offense and defense combined. If that's the case, I gotta drop Mantle down and move Dimaggio right up there with Mays. I would probably start with Mays and then Joe D.
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Postby LCBOY » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:29 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:Like I said, I never knew/know alot about baseball history but I also thought Mantle was considered a better player than Mays, or at least equal.


In terms of peak value, Mantle was superior. Mantles best 4-5 seasons are way above Mays. In terms of career value Mays is superior becasue of his longevity. Whats interesting is that a lot of fans have the impression that Mantle's career was cut short. It really wasn't. I believe that Mantle stills holds the record for most games played as a Yankee...
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Postby Urge » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:53 pm

Mays and Griffey are easily the top 2 of those in defense. If you're going to rank the all-time best you can't leave out half the game.
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Postby Tavish » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:21 pm

Urge wrote:Mays and Griffey are easily the top 2 of those in defense. If you're going to rank the all-time best you can't leave out half the game.


There are probably just as many who consider Speaker the greatest defensive center fielder of all time. It's pretty hard to argue fielding ability without having footage to compare to Mays and Griffey.
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:39 pm

LCBOY wrote:
ajgnydc722 wrote:Like I said, I never knew/know alot about baseball history but I also thought Mantle was considered a better player than Mays, or at least equal.


In terms of peak value, Mantle was superior. Mantles best 4-5 seasons are way above Mays. In terms of career value Mays is superior becasue of his longevity. Whats interesting is that a lot of fans have the impression that Mantle's career was cut short. It really wasn't. I believe that Mantle stills holds the record for most games played as a Yankee...


He actually holds the record for games played (2401) and AB (8102). I can only speak for myself but that averages out to 133 games per season. That also doesn't take into consideration the time where he wasn't at his best due to the knee injury and after nights of partying. That would have probably added some peak years to his worse ones.

Tavish wrote:
Urge wrote:Mays and Griffey are easily the top 2 of those in defense. If you're going to rank the all-time best you can't leave out half the game.


There are probably just as many who consider Speaker the greatest defensive center fielder of all time. It's pretty hard to argue fielding ability without having footage to compare to Mays and Griffey.


Joe D. was pretty good defensively as well. ;-)
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 am

Yeah, I was gonna say, isn't Joltin Joe considered one of the best, or the best CF's ever?
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