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whos a better lefty? Koufax or The Big Unit?

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Postby nmarq8 » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:59 pm

koufax, next question.
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Postby HOOTIE » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:32 am

Grove all-time. RJ over Koufax by a hair. RJs ERA+ is better, win % better, although both are close. But the deciding factor is innings. 3,000 innings of a 3 era, is worth more then 2,000 innings of it.
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Postby thehat » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:26 am

Lenny Dykstra wrote:did'nt they lower the mound in the 60's????i forget when they did it but i know they did.can you imagine rj on a higher mound....wow!


No, they raised the mound, and I believe it was 1968...the year Denny the Dimwit won his 30 and Gibson had the 1.12 ERA.
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Postby LBJackal » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:57 am

I'd definately say RJ, for pretty much the same reasons as HOOTIE just mentioned. He was better than Koufax in pretty much every important category, and pitched much longer. Can't really see why Koufax would be said to be better. What did he do better? As for Lefty Grove, he was awesome. But it was such a long time ago, so it's tough to tell for sure. He was also not only a starter, but a reliever, and had a relatively low IP/game. If Grove was an SP for his whole career, I might pick him, but I'm going with RJ as the best lefty of all time.
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Postby Carnac » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:23 pm

To the hat,

The mound was lowered in the late 60's.
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Postby crip » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:27 pm

I never saw Koufax...but I just can't imagine he could have been as good as RJ

I mean RJ intimidates batters with that scowl and 6'10" body...not to mention the 98-99 MPH fastball and nasty slider

I know Koufax was great but RJ is amazing!!
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Postby thehat » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:53 pm

Carnac wrote:To the hat,

The mound was lowered in the late 60's.


Sorry, Carnac...you got it backwards. The mound was raised. The complaints from hitters in '68 was deafening. I don't recall the exact year it was raised, but it was after the offensive explosions in '61 and '62.
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Postby slomo007 » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:56 pm

thehat wrote:
Carnac wrote:To the hat,

The mound was lowered in the late 60's.


Sorry, Carnac...you got it backwards. The mound was raised. The complaints from hitters in '68 was deafening. I don't recall the exact year it was raised, but it was after the offensive explosions in '61 and '62.


I'm not a baseball history buff, but I found this:

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Some Pitching History

1858

In the earliest days of baseball, there was no rubber at the pitcher's mound. Pitchers stood inside a six-foot square that looked much like today's batter's box. The front line of the box was only 45 feet from the plate. (The batters were also allowed to call their pitches -- high, low or fair.)

1881

Baseball moved the front of the pitcher's box back to 50 feet.

1887

Baseball made the box smaller and batters were no longer allowed to call for their pitches.

1893

Baseball replaced the pitcher's box with the pitcher's plate. The plate was set at 5 feet behind the back line of the pitcher's box. The theory of the distance is that the proposal was to move it 60 feet, but a groundskeeper misread the number and put it at 60 feet, 6 inches from the mound.

1903

The height of the pitching mound was set at no higher than 15 inches.

1968

After one of the most dominant years for pitchers in baseball (both league MVPs were pitchers), the mound was reduced to 10 inches tall.



http://www.historicbaseball.com/fea/pitching.html

So apparently, it was lowered, making Koufax's accomplishments not quite so impressive.
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Postby Carnac » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:30 pm

Like I said the mound was lowered. All you guys must be about 15 years old. HaHa

I don't think the mound being lowered diminishes anything. Otherwise all the strikout leaders would be from that era.

Most of the strikout leaders are from after that era. So what you are telling us is that Nolan Ryan, Rocket, Carlton, Seaver and their peers are superhuman?

Well it's a good thing the mound was lowered. Ryan would have probably struck out 600 batters in a season and pitched 25 no hitters. Instead he broke Koufax's season record by one 383 to 382.
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Postby LBJackal » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:34 pm

Like I said in another thread: K's shouldn't be a factor when you're ranking pitchers. They count the same as a pop fly or ground out. Why does it matter who was a better K pitcher?
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