And one more thing, why in the world do you guys think Hoffman is a HOFer? Please, he's not even remotely close. Saying he is a HOFer does a great disservice to guys like Frank Thomas who is probably a borderline case.
Hoffman's career was just entirely too short. He didn't have his first 30 + save season until he was 27. We can say, now, that his primary career ended at 34. He is now on his long trek to retirement. Same goes for Rivera.
Rivera doesn't even have 300 saves yet. I'm not saying either one will never be in the HOF, but AS OF NOW, neither should be in.
With their limited role in baseball, they should also have a limited place in the HOF.
I wanna see sustained Gagne-like dominance over the course of several years for a reliver to be a HOF.
Josh.......Please look at this list of HOF 2B and tell me who was a power hitter. I'm not saying that Biggio is or isn't a HOF'er but you need to take the position into consideration. I would think that catcher, second base, and shortstop would be like that. The really big power hitters at those positions didn't come into play until recent times (for the most part). Here's the list:
Lofunzo wrote:Josh.......Please look at this list of HOF 2B and tell me who was a power hitter. I'm not saying that Biggio is or isn't a HOF'er but you need to take the position into consideration. I would think that catcher, second base, and shortstop would be like that. The really big power hitters at those positions didn't come into play until recent times (for the most part). Here's the list:
Rod Carew Eddie Collins Bobby Doerr Johnny Evers Nellie Fox Frankie Frisch Charlie Gehringer Billy Herman Rogers Hornsby Nap Lajoie Tony Lazzeri Bill Mazeroski Bid McPhee Joe Morgan Jackie Robinson Red Schoendienst
I also was saying Biggio didn't have enough until I started researching the stats of HOF secondbasemen. The position is very weak and Biggio actually has better stats than some in now.
Hard to believe Biggio won't be in. He's a second baseman, leadoff hitter, all-around good guy and played for the same team his entire career. Voters love guys like that, and even discounting James' "little stats" I think a convincing case can be made for Biggio's induction to the hall.
However there is no way Mark Grace makes the hall, or deserves to. He was a good player for a long time, but the one thing everyone always mentions about him, that he had the most hits in the 90's, is totally meaningless. You will never hear anyone say "Player X had the most hits from 1989-1999", because it sounds silly, yet that is essentially the same thing as what Mark Grace did. He was just lucky that his best years concided with the beginning and ending of a decade, as opposed to starting in the middle of a decade and ending in another. Take into account that he is a 1st baseman and there are, gosh, at least 4-5 1st basemen I'd rather have on my team during the 90's, and it's hard to see him as a HOF-er.
And here is the last year of each of these guys career and I will note which players got voted in by the Veteran's Committee. You'll quickly see a trend
Rod Carew -1985 (3000 hits and .328 lifetime AVG and 1 MVP)
Eddie Collins - 1930 (3000 hits and .333 lifetime AVG and 1 MVP)
Bobby Doerr - VC vote
Johnny Evers - 1929 (but his career ended in 1917, 1 MVP)
Nellie Fox - VC vote
Frankie Frisch - 1937 (2880 hits, .316 lifetime AVG, 1 MVP)
Charlie Gehringer - 1942 (2839 hits, .320 lifetime AVG, 1 MVP)
Billy Herman - VC vote
Rogers Hornsby - 1937 (Just one of the all-time greats, 1500+ runs, 300+ HR, 2930 hits, 1500 + RBI, .358 lifetime AVG, 2 time MVP, finished in the top 3 of voting for MVP 4 times)
Nap Lajoie - 1916 (3242 hits, .338 life time AVG, 1500+ runs and RBI, 1 Triple Crown, led league in batting 5 times, played before MVP given)
Tony Lazzeri - VC Vote
Bill Mazeroski - VC vote
Bid McPhee - VC Vote
Joe Morgan - 1984 (1650 runs, 1100+RBI, 268 HR, 2500+ hits, nearly 700 SB, 2 MVPs, 5 Gold Gloves, and 2 World Series Rings)
Jackie Robinson - 1956 Only had half a career in MLB, but he did a little thing called "Breaking the Color Barrier." Let's face it, he could have finished his career with one hit and he's a HOFer. In 10 years, he had 947 runs, 1518 hits, 137 HR, 734 RBI, 197 SB, and .311 lifetime AVG. Oh yeah, 1 MVP.
Red Schoendienst - VC Vote
So after removing our VC 2B, our list is Jackie Robinson, Joe Morgan, Nap LAjoie, Rogers Hornsby, Charlie Gehringer, Frank Frisch, Johnny Evers, Eddie Collins and Rod Carew. Looking at sheer numbers we have to remove Robinson for the sake of comparison due to his shortened career.
The first thing everyone has on this list is at least 1 MVP (save LaJoie).
Second, everyone has a lifetime AVG of over .300 except for Morgan. Then again, Morgan won 2 World Series and was MVP twice.
Third, nearly everyone is at or above 3000 hits.
Fourth, Only two 2B have been elected to the HOF since 1937 (excluding Jackie Robinson, all respect given). They are Rod Carew and Joe Morgan. As aforementioned, Morgan has 2 MVPs, 2 World Series rings, and better numbers than Biggio. Carew won an MVP and has a AVG of .328.
Biggio has no MVPs. In fact he's never finished in the top 3 in voting in his career. He's never won a World Series. His lifetime AVG is only .287 and he only has 210 career HR. In today's "juicied" environment those aren't HOF numbers.