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What is wrong with Renteria?

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Postby wrveres » Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:17 pm

Kelly Gruber wrote:Forget about slumping because of his contract and whatnot, howabout slumping because that is the player he really is. Look at his career numbers; nothing special. Only his last 2 seasons have been good, but those are the only 2 times he's batted above 300. Right now he's batting about 260, which is not far from the norm of his career.

Look at his numbers from 2001 and expect a little better, but so far he hasn't shown any signs to suggest that the last 2 seasons are the player he has become, rather 2 good career seasons amongst a mediocre career.

You probably won't get much for him now, but if you are looking to trade for him then do not give up anybody good. Right now I'd rather have Orlando Cabrera; he has a better chance of turning his season around than Renteria.


hmm?
he is a career .288 hitter ... :-?
And those two good career season are a culmunation of his development. I guess its hard to forget he is only 28 years old and already had what, 8 big leagues seasons under his belt.

on top of that he has only batted .260 once in his life ...
and he was injured at the time ...

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Postby BronsonPinchot » Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:48 pm

I wasn't clear in my post. I'm not comparing him to Gwynn or HoJo persay, what I'm saying is that careerwise he is not as strong in many categories as you would think he is by just looking at last season - an aberration from his norm. The fact that his numbers have increased two years in a row doesn't make him a good player. He's a fantasy starter, I won't dispute that. I also wouldn't mind drafting him if I could get him in the mid or late rounds. But guess what. Renteria didn't go in that area. In one of my leagues he was taken FIRST round (horrible pick of course) and went second and third round in the two others. Now maybe this is way off. Maybe Renteria goes sixth round or eighth round in most drafts, I don't know. But I can tell you that when I, and a couple of other GMs who have a vague idea as to what they are doing, saw Renteria being drafted that high, it was pure comedy. Pure. He had a career year. That doesn't make him a premiere player. He's middle of the pack fantasywise, and thats just how it is. Don't expect some massive turnaround, because you're unlikely to get it. He's just not that good. He's not a star player. Deal with it.
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Postby smelson » Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:56 pm

Yeah, that is a weak argrument. This guy is entering his prime, you would expect his numbers to be a lot better recently than they were when he was in his first few years in the majors. This is like saying Miguel Tejada is overrated and not a great hitter because he is only a .274 career hitter and he had some bad years in 1999 and 2000.
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Postby rmeesig » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:05 pm

smelson wrote:Yeah, that is a weak argrument. This guy is entering his prime, you would expect his numbers to be a lot better recently than they were when he was in his first few years in the majors. This is like saying Miguel Tejada is overrated and not a great hitter because he is only a .274 career hitter and he had some bad years in 1999 and 2000.


exactly...there are hundreds of players who fit into this description..I mean Bonds only hit 40 some HRs last year...he simply isn't that good.
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Postby BronsonPinchot » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:12 pm

No, its not. Miguel Tejada is a much different hitter than Renteria. Thats the point. Tejada has hit thirty or close to thirty homers four times. Four. Renteria's career high is 16. Renteria once slugged over .450. Tejeda did it four times. Renteria bats sixth for his team, sometimes seventh (albeit in a good lineup). Tejada bats cleanup. The fact is, for Renteria to have extremely productive years like he had last year, he needs to hit around .330. And guess what. He's not a .330 hitter. He's not going to get 100 rbi as the type of slugger he is when he's batting seventh in a lineup. He's not going to approach 100 runs either if he's not batting .330 and in front of players who can hit. He'll never hit a lot of homers. He's stolen over 30 bases four times, so thats a category you might have a shot at with him. But he's been consistently mediocre in steals over his past four years. This is just the type of player Renteria is. He had a career year. Acknowledge that and move on. He's not Miguel Tejada. He's not an upper tier fantasy baseball player. He's Edgar Renteria.
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:06 am

Cousin.......Did you lose your league last year because of Renteria?? I don't see why you have such strong opinions on him and say it as such a matter of fact. If you don't want him, fine. I'll take my chances on a player at a thin position that has improved over the years. I also don't see how you say that he's gonna hit at the bottom of the order. Any drop in the order is temporary. He will hit between 2-5 regularly.
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Postby Kelly Gruber » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:24 am

You guys must have Renteria on your teams; that's why you're defending him and defending your bad draft picks and/or trades. I agree completely with Bronson: Renteria has had 2 good seasons and is showing no signs - even mediocre players go in good stretches of getting walks, for whoever brought up that point, but it doesn't mean that they'll start hitting - of reproducing those numbers, rather he looks just like his umpteen seasons beforehand. Bronson is right; batting where he is if he doesn't hit for average he will not get many RBI's and R's (and doens't get many HR, anyways) so all he's good for right now is SB's, which he is above average in, but not hugely. So, you get 1/5 categories from an upper round pick. Congratulations.
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Postby rmeesig » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:38 am

It's funny that you hold Tejada in such higher regard then Renteria. One season's stats does not define a player, so let's check out their career stats:
AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS
Tejada - .272/.334/.461/.794/
Renteria - .288/.346/.399/.745/

So Tejada has better power numbers (yet still has LESS runs), but his AVG and OBP are lower. They are both great SS, with different strengths. If you are saying Renteria is just not that good, then the same should be said for Tejada, based on their career numbers.

I have no idea why you have such a thing against him, but at least look at his CAREER numbers to determine what type of player he is, rather than ONE season. The guy's having a tough start....as you say, acknowledge that and move on.
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Postby beltrans_boy » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:46 am

rmeesig wrote:It's funny that you hold Tejada in such higher regard then Renteria. One season's stats does not define a player, so let's check out their career stats:
AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS
Tejada - .272/.334/.461/.794/
Renteria - .288/.346/.399/.745/

So Tejada has better power numbers (yet still has LESS runs), but his AVG and OBP are lower. They are both great SS, with different strengths. If you are saying Renteria is just not that good, then the same should be said for Tejada, based on their career numbers.

I have no idea why you have such a thing against him, but at least look at his CAREER numbers to determine what type of player he is, rather than ONE season. The guy's having a tough start....as you say, acknowledge that and move on.


Good post! Renteria will be fine...just like Jeter is fine. Just like Vidro is fine. Just like Beltran is fine. Just like Boone is fine. Just like Soriano is fine. Just like A-Rod is fine.

You people need to learn to trust star players a little more...
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Postby BronsonPinchot » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:24 am

Lofunzo: Renteria will be batting 2-5 regularly? Excuse me? Guess what. He didn't get moved down to 6 or 7 recently. He started off the season at 6 and has seen some 7 I believe. They've Womack leading and Anderson often second. Then they have their good batters batting 3-4-5. Now, I don't disagree with you in that Renteria may bat 2nd again later this season or next year, he is a 2nd in the lineup type hitter. But I do feel the need to point out that it has not been happening this season. Now, if you'd bat Renteria 5th with his power, you're either a bad manager or managing a bad team... (or Edgar's pounding out a career year in terms of gap power like last season, and warranting you placing him there).


rmeesign: Look at the stats you posted. The only one I specifically referenced in my comparison was slugging percentage, and Tejada's is 60 points higher career. That is huge. What it means, basically, is that for him to knock in runs even remotely as effectively as Tejada he needs a much higher BATTING AVERAGE in a given season because each hit he gets is likely to drive in less runs than a Tejada hit. Edgar Renteria hit .330 last year. .330 is a huge outlier among Renteria's career batting stats. Its extremely UNLIKELY that a .288 career hitter will consistently hit .330. And hitting .330 is what a guy with very limited power needs to do to knock in runs. Someone in this thread has compared him to Jeter. Guess what, Jeter is better, and a reason Jeter is better is that he has hit well over .300 multiple times. Theres a much greater chance of him reaching that meaty .300+ area than there is of Renteria reaching it. (now, I'm not saying Jeter is the player to pick going forward. Maybe he's over the hill. I have no idea. All I'm saying is, is that he's a different TYPE of player, he is a better average hitter. He just is. So be careful when any of you guys compare him to Renteria...). Back to the Tejada comparison that I obviously was not clear about, as evidenced by the absurd degree to which it was misconstrued. The comparison indicates this: Tejada can have an average season where he hits .275 or so, and because of his high slugging percentage and home runs will still drive in a lot of runs. Renteria needs to bat WAY ABOVE his career numbers to drive in runs. Slugging percentage isn't a category in my league. Its just a stat I used to differentiate the two players in order to clear up a poor comparison by a previous poster. Homers are a category in my league. The differences between Tejada and Renteria in these two categories help explain their likelihood of performing in another category that is counted in my league: RBI. Just check that stats boys. Renteria has topped 100 once and has come vaguely close to it only one other time. To top it again, he needs to have ANOTHER career year. Its unlikely he will consistently have career years. If you think he will, then come out and say it. Just don't EXPECT him to based on the type of player he is.


Now, I don't hate Renteria. I happen to have Arod so I wouldn't start him at short, but if I didn't have a top tier ss, I wouldn't feel bad starting Renteria there. What I'm basically criticizing isn't Renteria himself. Theres no reason for me to do that because his abilities as a baseball player are laid out in black and white. What I'm criticizing are the comcially lofty expectations of people regarding Renteria. He isn't as good as many of you think he is. And theres no logical reason for you guys to think he's as good as you do. Now, a lot of the reason I'm saying this is from my person experience. As I've said before, I saw Renteria get drafted no later than the third round and as early as the first. This was a great source of mirth for me and other gms in these leagues. He isn't that good, guys. Now maybe in your leagues Renteria went in the mid-rounds. Thats ok. If he did, he probably wasn't overvalued. The guy is not completely worthless. He can start on a fantasy baseball team. But he's not the top tier player people make him out to be. He just isn't.


But if you're one of the people who took Edgar very early, and who expect Edgar to start lighting it up, get your facts straight. Say that you expect Edgar to continue to have career years and hit .330. Say that you expect him to consistently show the running ability he showed early in his career. Say you expect the Cards to bat him higher in the order. Say that you want, and expect these things to happen, NOT that they SHOULD HAPPEN based on the player Edgar Renteria is. Because they shouldn't. And theres no logical reason for anyone to think that they should.
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