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Trade rumors everywhere round Seattle even Ichiro not Safe??

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Postby blankman » Mon May 31, 2004 12:09 am

bibsybob wrote:sluggers and lead-off hitters cannot be compared, they do vastly different things for the team. They serve different purposes.


Yes they can be compared. Every players' sole importance is to create runs. Thats the point of baseball- to score more runs than the other team. Thats why any player can be compared to another in the same year or couple years.

Since players are supposed to create runs, lets see where Ichiro ranked in Runs Created per 27 outs.

Ichiro 6.07 RC/27 60th in the league

using Hootie's example, Tim Salmon averaged 6.28 RC/27. He doesn't get all the press Ichiro does, so how is Ichiro not at all overrated? Remember, overrated DOES NOT mean bad. It means "not as good as people think he is." Its kind of sad too when someone that many people think is so good creates less runs per 27 outs than guys you never hear about like Brad Wilkerson or Mike Lieberthal.
Last edited by blankman on Mon May 31, 2004 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby bibsybob » Mon May 31, 2004 12:13 am

maybe theres that whole runs created stat or something like that, just dont know how taht works. But how do u compare 120 runs to 120 rbi.
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Postby blankman » Mon May 31, 2004 12:19 am

bibsybob wrote:maybe theres that whole runs created stat or something like that, just dont know how taht works. But how do u compare 120 runs to 120 rbi.


I was in the process of typing it up on RC when you posted. look at my post above yours
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Postby Mugrila » Mon May 31, 2004 12:27 am

back to the original idea of this post, i don't see seattle trading ichiro and i don't see how the cubs would use him. like previously stated the cubs OF is fine and ichiro brings seattle attention from other parts of the world. i do, however, think we need to make some moves but ichrio would not be one of them. trading everyday eddie for some young prospects might be the way to go.
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Postby blankman » Mon May 31, 2004 12:27 am

Or if you prefer Win Shares to take defense into account....

Why was this "superstar" ranked 17th in the AL in Win Shares? Simply because he's not as good as many people think.
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Postby HOOTIE » Mon May 31, 2004 12:27 am

bibsybob wrote:sluggers and lead-off hitters cannot be compared, they do vastly different things for the team. They serve different purposes.


Sure they can. The job of every hitter, is to create runs. It doesn't matter if you bat leadoff or 7th, slap the ball, or swing from the heels. You try to get on base (OBA), translation, not make a out, and move the runners (slugging). It's how the majority (about 95%, using the simple runs created formula), are scored. Why can't Ichiro walk. Since he's a 90% singles guy, he should be posting 390-400 oba at least. That's my point. Should we not compare RJ to Maddux, because Maddux is a finesse guy, and RJ isn't? Of course not. Hitters job is simple. Create runs.
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Postby HOOTIE » Mon May 31, 2004 12:34 am

bibsybob wrote:maybe theres that whole runs created stat or something like that, just dont know how taht works. But how do u compare 120 runs to 120 rbi.


Runs and rbis are team dependent stats, influenced alot by # of abs, spot in order. Unless a player hrs, he's totally dependent on his team to get either. Runs created has nothing to do with either.

BLANKMAN Nice job. ;-D
I have never noticed you as a sabermetric person before? Was i sleeping, or did you turn over a new leaf?
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Postby bibsybob » Mon May 31, 2004 12:37 am

hmm that stat just seems to me to depend on the lineup more than anything else. By the way, doesnt football work the same way u described with both the qb and wr workin to get points. When the wr is not open is equivalent to when the table-setters are not on base. When the qb sucks, i equate that in baseball to lack of a good rbi guy. Ichiro has a different style, a different job. His primary duty is to get on base and steal, etc, to get into scoring position. TRue, he may get opportunities to hit guys in but rarely in that 1 spot, where he is purposefully designated to do a certain thing. How do u compare slap hits to home runs. To each his own in whatever way he helps his team, but i just think they vary greatly in what they are attempting to accomplish. Why do certain teams need certain players, like maybe a team needing a leadoff guy more than a power guy. Because they serve in different capactities. yes, they have a primary goal but in the general sense, its only similar in that they both try to win the game. They attempt to create runs but in different ways. But the point is that their are various ways to create runs. Creating runs by scoring them and creating runs by hitting them in are different and suited to different types of hitters.
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Postby Capnpitz » Mon May 31, 2004 12:42 am

There's a possibility here that I think is being missed: just because some players who are as good or better than Ichiro don't have as much prestige as he does doesn't necessarily mean he is overrated. Maybe Salmon et al are simply underrated. Maybe they are rated lower than they should be, whereas Ichiro is getting what he deserves. Maybe Ichiro is just...rated.
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Postby funatic » Mon May 31, 2004 12:45 am

How is the runs created stat calculated? Do you just add up runs and rbi's? If so, that is a poor way to compare a leadoff batter with someone batting 3rd or 4th. RBI opportunities from the bottom of the order is not quite abundant. Again, they do different things. Do I think Ichiro is overrated? I don't know. I don't really know how he is rated. Based on fantasy value, yes, he probably is overrated. But this is probably helped by his strong history as I mentioned. Whether or not he will get back to be the best leadoff hitter, that is yet to be seen, and I may be biased when I think that he will eventually, maybe not this year.

As for trading him, that is out of the question. Seattle knows that he is the face of the franchise, more or less. They could and should definitely trade other players, because they are not getting much done now.
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