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Trade rumors everywhere round Seattle even Ichiro not Safe??

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Postby Registered_Guest » Sun May 30, 2004 9:34 pm

It's nothing against Ichiro, the Cubs just have no use for him unless Sosa catches a long term case of the sneezes.

I'd take Patterson over Ichiro in CF in a heartbeat. 5+ years younger is only going to improve. For that matter, outside of perhaps Juan Pierre, there isn't a CF in baseball I'd deal Patterson for.

Defense is a huge part of the equation, which is why the Yankees have not won a championship the past 2 years and won't this year. Their whole OF is slow defensively. Jump down my throat Yankee fans if you wish, but that's the truth of the matter.
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Postby fantasyfiend » Sun May 30, 2004 9:46 pm

KPucks wrote:
fantasyfiend wrote:Everyday eddie is a top 5 closer in baseball. ofcourse he'd be closer.

You think Guardado is better than Gagne, Smoltz, Mariano Rivera, Foulke, and Wagner?


ok, let me be more precise:

guardardo is a top 6 closer in baseball.
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Postby KPucks » Sun May 30, 2004 9:57 pm

Registered_Guest wrote:For that matter, outside of perhaps Juan Pierre, there isn't a CF in baseball I'd deal Patterson for.


You wouldn't want Beltran, huh? :-D

Patterson is good, but there are some CF's that I would want more.
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Postby Brokentusks9 » Sun May 30, 2004 10:09 pm

KPucks wrote:
Registered_Guest wrote:For that matter, outside of perhaps Juan Pierre, there isn't a CF in baseball I'd deal Patterson for.


You wouldn't want Beltran, huh? :-D

Patterson is good, but there are some CF's that I would want more.


Beltran, Jones, Wells, Pierre, Podsednik, Wilson, Hunter, Baldelli off the top of my head.

But really, why would you want want these CFs when you could have a career .260 hitter?
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun May 30, 2004 10:45 pm

fantasyfiend wrote:Although I love using stats to back up my arguements I dont think you can in this case.

Ichiro batting lead off, in a line up with what used to be some of the better power hitters in the game doesnt need to hit for any power. Remember lets keep this MLB oriented and not fantasy. Yes he's a RF, but how can you compare a spray hitting lead off hitter like ichiro to a power hitter like salmon? thats like comparing position stats in the NFL.

OPS is 'null' when argueing a lead off hitters value to a team.

I respect statiticians, and or any other person who evaluates talents strictly off ratios and %'s, but any baseball loving person, who coaches, watches games, and has common sense in evaluating skill will tell you how much of an asset this guy is when your formula is to win ball games.


You compare players to peers in their positions. So you compare Ichiro to the other RF. The fact he's a spray hitter, and say Salmon is a power hitter is immaterial. The job of EVERY hitter is to create runs. Ichiro is good, and does create them. But in compariosion to other RF, there are quite a few much better. I'm a Seattle fan, and i would take Vlad, Sosa, Giles, Mags, Cabrera, Abreu, Sheffield over him, in real life. I'm not knocking Ichiro, just showing his flash, makes him overrated. Salmons career has been just as good, if not better, yet Salmon doesn't get Ichiros accolades.

Ichiro isn't a great oba machine. While his current .370 isn't bad, (352 last year) :-t it's not star material, especially when 63 of your 73 hits are singles. For a guy with speed, he has no doubles or triples.

His oba and ops have been dropping every year. His 773 current OPS is not acceptable for a RF.

Look at current RF OPS

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats.bat ... d=a&pos=rf
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Postby KPucks » Sun May 30, 2004 10:51 pm

HOOTIE wrote:
fantasyfiend wrote:Although I love using stats to back up my arguements I dont think you can in this case.

Ichiro batting lead off, in a line up with what used to be some of the better power hitters in the game doesnt need to hit for any power. Remember lets keep this MLB oriented and not fantasy. Yes he's a RF, but how can you compare a spray hitting lead off hitter like ichiro to a power hitter like salmon? thats like comparing position stats in the NFL.

OPS is 'null' when argueing a lead off hitters value to a team.

I respect statiticians, and or any other person who evaluates talents strictly off ratios and %'s, but any baseball loving person, who coaches, watches games, and has common sense in evaluating skill will tell you how much of an asset this guy is when your formula is to win ball games.



You compare players to peers in their positions. So you compare Ichiro to the other RF. The fact he's a spray hitter, and say Salmon is a power hitter is immaterial. The job of EVERY hitter is to create runs. Ichiro is good, and does create them. But in compariosion to other RF, there are quite a few much better. I'm a Seattle fan, and i would take Vlad, Sosa, Giles, Mags, Cabrera, Abreu, Sheffield over him, in real life. I'm not knocking Ichiro, just showing his flash, makes him overrated. Salmons career has been just as good, if not better, yet Salmon doesn't get Ichiros accolades.

Ichiro isn't a great oba machine. While his current .370 isn't bad, (352 last year) :-t it's not star material, especially when 63 of your 73 hits are singles. For a guy with speed, he has no doubles or triples.

His oba and ops have been dropping every year. His 773 current OPS is not acceptable for a RF.

Look at current RF OPS

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats.bat ... d=a&pos=rf

nice HOOTIE ;-D I think Ichiro is great, but like HOOTIE said, his stats have declined every year and he isn't good for much other than hitting singles.
Last edited by KPucks on Sun May 30, 2004 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Slow Pitch » Sun May 30, 2004 11:28 pm

Registered_Guest wrote:It's nothing against Ichiro, the Cubs just have no use for him unless Sosa catches a long term case of the sneezes.

I'd take Patterson over Ichiro in CF in a heartbeat. 5+ years younger is only going to improve. For that matter, outside of perhaps Juan Pierre, there isn't a CF in baseball I'd deal Patterson for.



You must be drunk. :*) Your blinded by your love for the Cubs. Patterson is not a TOP 10 CF in baseball:

If you wouldnt trade him for Beltran or Wells you are a fool.
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Postby funatic » Sun May 30, 2004 11:55 pm

Defense-wise, I would take Ichiro over any other RF, by far. Offense-wise, I'd take Vlad in a heartbeat, and most of the other RF's mentioned. However, I don't think Ichiro is past his prime, and his rookie year was simply blistering. If he could come close to what he did in his rookie year, then I would take him over everyone else, based on his offense and defense, and him being the best leadoff hitter out there. You can't compare leadoff hitters and sluggers. A good player of either is hard to find. Sure, you can argue that sluggers are more important, but that may not be the case for every team. Looking at potential, I certainly think Ichiro is too good a player to just fade away. He has a solid history, before the recent couple of mediocre years. To be a seven time batting champion is no easy feat. He probably will never bat for power, but that does not make him any worse a batter. In his rookie year, he had one of the highest batting average with RISP that I have ever seen. Albeit in a leadoff position, he did have many opportunities in the then strong Seattle offense.
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Postby bibsybob » Sun May 30, 2004 11:57 pm

sluggers and lead-off hitters cannot be compared, they do vastly different things for the team. They serve different purposes.
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Postby blankman » Mon May 31, 2004 12:07 am

HOOTIE wrote:
fantasyfiend wrote:Although I love using stats to back up my arguements I dont think you can in this case.

Ichiro batting lead off, in a line up with what used to be some of the better power hitters in the game doesnt need to hit for any power. Remember lets keep this MLB oriented and not fantasy. Yes he's a RF, but how can you compare a spray hitting lead off hitter like ichiro to a power hitter like salmon? thats like comparing position stats in the NFL.

OPS is 'null' when argueing a lead off hitters value to a team.

I respect statiticians, and or any other person who evaluates talents strictly off ratios and %'s, but any baseball loving person, who coaches, watches games, and has common sense in evaluating skill will tell you how much of an asset this guy is when your formula is to win ball games.


You compare players to peers in their positions. So you compare Ichiro to the other RF. The fact he's a spray hitter, and say Salmon is a power hitter is immaterial. The job of EVERY hitter is to create runs. Ichiro is good, and does create them. But in compariosion to other RF, there are quite a few much better. I'm a Seattle fan, and i would take Vlad, Sosa, Giles, Mags, Cabrera, Abreu, Sheffield over him, in real life. I'm not knocking Ichiro, just showing his flash, makes him overrated. Salmons career has been just as good, if not better, yet Salmon doesn't get Ichiros accolades.

Ichiro isn't a great oba machine. While his current .370 isn't bad, (352 last year) :-t it's not star material, especially when 63 of your 73 hits are singles. For a guy with speed, he has no doubles or triples.

His oba and ops have been dropping every year. His 773 current OPS is not acceptable for a RF.

Look at current RF OPS

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats.bat ... d=a&pos=rf


Thank you Hootie for the stats. I fully agree ;-D

FF- the reasons Hootie made are why I think Ichiro is overrated.

If he's supposed to be such an amazing leadoff hitter, then why doesn't he do his job as well as so many other players- to get on base? As a RF last year, his OBP was 11th in the league among RFers. And 31st in the league among OF. And 70th in the league overall. Thats what a great leadoff hitter does?
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