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Yet Another Ethics Question

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Postby Bukoski77 » Sat May 29, 2004 4:33 am

Kelly Gruber wrote:All I did was post the message before the draft. Why is it the commish's responsibility to make sure that everyone knows the rules? They're there for everyone to see and if an owner does not know the rules then that's his problem. Don't forget I'm competing against these people. I'm not prepared to hold their hands and give away my strategies without them doing any research or independant thinking to come to the same conclusions. I posted the message to lead them in the right direction, but I didn't explicitly outline my plan.

This just looks suspect because I am commish. But I think I gave them fair warning...


Kelly Gruber wrote:All I did was post the message before the draft

How much time or how long before the draft did you post that message?

Kelly Gruber wrote:Why is it the commish's responsibility to make sure that everyone knows the rules?

Because as commissioner you are the glorified babysitter. The commish is responsible for maintaining the competetive integrity of his/her league. If they didnt have proper notification of the scoreing format, and I'm not saying they didnt or you didnt give them good notice, or if you changed the scoreing/lineup elibilty/ rules in general after they signed up or agreed to the league with the prior settings.............. You have the thankless task to notify them of those changes, or at the very least e-mail them. E-mail the address they gave you at least a week before the draft and you did your part.

Kelly Gruber wrote:They're there for everyone to see and if an owner does not know the rules then that's his problem. Don't forget I'm competing against these people. I'm not prepared to hold their hands and give away my strategies without them doing any research or independant thinking to come to the same conclusions. I posted the message to lead them in the right direction, but I didn't explicitly outline my plan.


You dont have to tip your hand or draft strategy. You do need to give them reasonable time to become aware of the league rules/scoreing/settings and adjust their rankings in accordance to the league settings however.....................

After all that is said and done, if you made those changes within a week of the draft and the commissioners notice was the only notice you made then I believe you are somewhat in the wrong. I'm not calling you a cheater if thats the case or suspecting collussion. From past experience in several leagues however, a commissioners notice is very easy to not even notice. I've played in leagues where the commissioner never changes the commish message even once throughout the year. I have also played in leagues where the commish changes the commissioner message 2-3 times a week.
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Postby LetsPlay2 » Sat May 29, 2004 5:09 am

After reading the posts, I'd say there's not much gray here.

"I set up the roster positions on purpose so that having closers that qualify for SP is a huge advantage. I didn't want anybody to catch on to my strategy but I felt it would be unfair if I left them in the dark. So, I posted the commisioner's note before the draft and listed in it the Yahoo eligibility rules, among other things."

Fantasy baseball has been around long enough to have a few well-established ways of scoring. Instead of choosing one of those you came up with a cornball one where closers are of largely inflated value. A flawed system that allows for stockpiling closers if in the know. It's the fantasy version of insider trading. If you needed the money so badly, I'm sure your friends would have kicked in for you. That's what friends do. They don't devise covert ways to bilk others. The 2 who didn't participate were wise.

I'm not going to get bogged down in the semantics of what "unethical" really means. It's very obvious by your pre-draft guilt and overplanning that you knew right from wrong on this one. Bottom line is that it was an underhanded way to make some money.
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Postby josebach » Sat May 29, 2004 8:19 am

LetsPlay2 wrote:After reading the posts, I'd say there's not much gray here.

"I set up the roster positions on purpose so that having closers that qualify for SP is a huge advantage. I didn't want anybody to catch on to my strategy but I felt it would be unfair if I left them in the dark. So, I posted the commisioner's note before the draft and listed in it the Yahoo eligibility rules, among other things."

Fantasy baseball has been around long enough to have a few well-established ways of scoring. Instead of choosing one of those you came up with a cornball one where closers are of largely inflated value. A flawed system that allows for stockpiling closers if in the know. It's the fantasy version of insider trading. If you needed the money so badly, I'm sure your friends would have kicked in for you. That's what friends do. They don't devise covert ways to bilk others. The 2 who didn't participate were wise.

I'm not going to get bogged down in the semantics of what "unethical" really means. It's very obvious by your pre-draft guilt and overplanning that you knew right from wrong on this one. Bottom line is that it was an underhanded way to make some money.


Good post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

If you purposely set the rules so that you could exploit a strategy that you knew to be unknown to others, you were wrong. I'm the commish of my league and am very aware that not everyone in my league is as knowledgeable about fantasy sports as I am. Personally, I would feel guilty of taking advantage of the less knowledgeable. To me, it's kind of like playing a 10 year old in Chess for money and then after you collect his money say "Well, he knew all the rules." Not really fair now is it?
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Postby Kelly Gruber » Sat May 29, 2004 11:46 am

I don't think that what I did was wrong and neither did the rest of my league until now, until I am sitting in first place. I set the league a month before the draft with the positions as is (3 RP's and 4 SP's) so people had a month to realize my strategy. I even posted the note with the eligibility rules to lead them in the right direction about 2 weeks before the draft.

The only solution that I can think of is me taking money from the pot and then we start a new pool to compete for the rest. But, everyone has to agree to it and everyone has to agree on the amount I take out, which prolly won't happen.

I use the extra closers to give my team a boost, but that is not the only reason I am winning. I am 200 hundred points ahead of the guy in second, and without the points from extra saves, I would be in second or third. I don't think they would be complaining if I didn't have such a good team otherwise.

I don't know what to do at this point...
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Postby Amazinz » Sat May 29, 2004 12:05 pm

matmat wrote:is it a good idea to be in a money league with your friends if you know that they are not as good or as interested in fantasy sports as you are.

Agreed.

Kelly Gruber wrote:I don't know what to do at this point...

Money leagues and friends can be sticky situations. I try to avoid them. You probably won't like this answer but I would fold the league and return the money whether or not you feel you are in the right.

It's never worth ruining friendships over pride, FB or even $1000 dollars. Just my $.02.
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Postby pokerplaya » Sat May 29, 2004 12:10 pm

I think there is a simple answer to this. If you felt compelled enough to bring this issue up in the Cafe, then you really know that you have no choice but to fold the league and return the cash. If it bothered you that much that you are second guessing your actions and decision making it is obviously weighing on your conscience. This may boil down to personal preference, as you didn't explictly break the rules, but obviously this is really bothering you and since they are your friends you should start anew and return their money.
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Postby Tavish » Sat May 29, 2004 12:21 pm

Money leagues and friends can be sticky situations. I try to avoid them. You probably won't like this answer but I would fold the league and return the money whether or not you feel you are in the right.

It's never worth ruining friendships over pride, FB or even $1000 dollars. Just my $.02.

We have a tradition in my money league that at the end of the year we all go out to eat/drink together after the season ends, with the winner buying. It turns out that the more you disliked the way the winner played the game during the season, the more you order.

Without knowing how good of friends you are or how truly bent they are over the situation it's hard to recommend a solution. They have a semi-valid complaint, but I'm sure quite abit of the problem is just poor loser syndrome. Talk it over with them until you all can reach a reasonable solution and then learn from your mistakes and fix the rules for next time.
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Postby rockpilefan » Sat May 29, 2004 12:30 pm

I agree with Pokerplaya: If you were sure that your conduct was honest and fair to all you wouldn't be asking for any justification.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat May 29, 2004 12:30 pm

Tavish wrote:We have a tradition in my money league that at the end of the year we all go out to eat/drink together after the season ends, with the winner buying. It turns out that the more you disliked the way the winner played the game during the season, the more you order.


That is awesome. ;-D

KG.......I don't want to say that you're right or wrong. I will say that if you thought that you were 100% blameless, then you probably wouldn't have started this thread in the 1st place. In the least, you were deceitful. That said, it is up to me to know who is eligible where.
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Postby Kelly Gruber » Sat May 29, 2004 12:40 pm

Thanx for your responses.

You are right, I do feel a little guilty because of my dual role as commish and player. They are definitly being sore losers (they did not have a problem with my startegy until they realized it worked) but they do have a point. My suggestion to them was I take half of what the first place prize was supposed to be and we start a new pool to compete for the rest. I'm sure we will reach a solution, eventually...

Thanx again.
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