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WHO WILL YOU VOTE AS PRESIDENT

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WHO WILL YOU VOTE TO BE PRESIDENT

John Kerry
23
42%
George Bush
22
40%
Ralph Nadar
2
4%
Other
2
4%
Won't Vote
6
11%
 
Total votes : 55

Postby Transmogrifier » Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:57 am

wkelly91 wrote:
The over-reaction of those who equate Bush to "Hitler" or any other hated person in history is befuddling. As much as I heard Clinton criticized, I never heard the vitriolic hate speech out of the right that is spewed by those on the left. :-t


While I agree that the Hitler-Bush comparisons are absurd, saying that the right didn't spew hate speech at Clinton is likewise absurd.

And you must remember that these people aren't typical of the "right" and "left."
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Postby wkelly91 » Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:14 am

Transmogrifier wrote:While I agree that the Hitler-Bush comparisons are absurd, saying that the right didn't spew hate speech at Clinton is likewise absurd.


Can you give an example? I do recall him being roundly criticized for his infidelity, denegrading the oval office, and lying under oath, all facts.

I do not recall him being equated with mass-murderers (certainly not a fact), or megalomaniacs (not a fact).

So please give some examples of similar hate speech. :-?
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Comparison Bush and Hitler

Postby acsguitar » Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:12 am

Ok here are my points on why you can compare Bush to Hitler:

Let me clarify some things before I start:

A.) The holocaust was an extremely horrible situation
B.) The crusades where also extremely horrible if someone could give me an estimate of the deaths that would be great.
C.) Bush is not Hitler; However, the similarities are their and even comparing your leader to someone like Hitler is not a good thing at all!
D.) If another Republican was running I would not vote for him due to many key differences. However, that does not mean I would compare him to Hitler.
E.) Please at least read and feel free to comment as always.


Both use public speech, and especially catch phrases to inspire loyalty to the "mother" country. Hitler was more animated with his speech but still Hitler saying things over and over again were propaganda and used to inspire a massive group to head his cause. Bush is always saying, "The Evil", "Bad Man" "Terrorist", "WMD's". He has no real points but uses sayings over and over again to create a bond with the listener. Repitition is key! Also, look how anyone not with Hitler was against Germany; Does that remind you of what is happening today....if you don't support Bush's decision then you are against the country.

Hitler ordered his "Holocaust" (Sp) based on pre-made religious judgements.

Bush has ordered his cleansing of the middle east through his religious opinions. Aka: God's America, His "Crusade" (He actually said this) against Terror.

Neither men are actually murders but their actions led to many many deaths. Of course Number wise you cannot compare the Death of 2,000,000 jews to 15,000 Iraqi citizens. However, in this day and age it would be hard to kill 2,000,000 jews without the entire world coming after you. These days it wouldn't happen. Now just hear me out. I say 15,000 innocent, meaning non armed non militant iraqis, including women and children, is comparable to the death of 2,000,000 jews...Just think how much faster news travels these days. No matter how you put it innocent lives have been lost that would not have been lost if not for this mans egomaniacal actions. As technology gets better the loss of lives should diminish due to rapid news reports and quick responses in terms of mobility.

Both are trying to live up to an impossible dream. Hitler was tormented as a child and failed as an artist. His only big break was when he joined the small, 12 person or so, Nazi party. His goal was to prove that he was not a failure. He needed somewhere to place his blame and his failures of the past.

Bush needs to do the same thing. Whether it be failed oil deals or failed managing of the Texas Rangers. Bush has always been that fumbling child in the shadow of his father. He had cocaine problems and has been arrested for Drunken Driving. The main thing that In my opinion that relates to Hitler's rise to power is the need to achieve where he has failed. Let us not forget Bush failed as a military pilot. Now he has the chance again. As commander in chief to prove that he is a true military man. So what does he do. As soon as he gets his chance he heads up a military campaign. Although Hitler and Bush have no "Real" military backgrounds other then being discharged, they both are Military heads of their country and with that power they have created death and destruction. There will to achieve overlooks their will to be be rational.

The use of fear in both campaigns is also evident. Bush wants to scare the country into believing there is more of a problem then their is. Yes terrorism is a problem and always has been a problem. Excuse me but hijacking have been happening for decades now. It's amazing that 9/11 didn't happen in the 70's 80's or 90's. I believe the fact is that in Israel over 300,000 bombs are found a year! So obviously our scale of terror is not anywhere close to theirs. However, people their still go on living normal lives. Bush's terror agenda distracts from the real problems at hand; Diplomacy, Commercialism, Religion. In essence he is saying as long as we can get these people everything that is wrong will be right!

Hitler said to his people the reason for all of your problems, especially economic, are due to the Jews or the Unclean. This distracts from the true problems and uses the scapegoat theory to bring the country together.

Islam= Scapegoat for all problems; We take no responsibility for any problems (Israel, Spreading of Democracy to a Theocracy, Globalism)

Jews= Scapegoat for all problems;

Through these scapegoats a common enemy is formed creating a strong bond throughout the country. The scapegoat is extremely powerful. I have talked to many people how just want to Kill Islams...They are usually uneducated people who have listened to the speeches and fear spread by the bush administration. Those same people were influenced by Hitler in the 30's and 40's. Now I know the goal is to get the "bad guys" but to many americans the bad guys are not just fundamentalist militant Islams but all Islams. Now this might not be the goal of the Administration to hate all islams; but that is the way it is portrayed. This reminds me of the other day I was listening to 94.7 rock in Washington, D.C. where I live and where fear is always high. 94.7 played a cat stevens song and a man called in saying supporting cat stevens was supporting terrorism. All that is jewish is rotten; Does this ring any bells?

There will never be another Hitler; In this day and age it is almost impossible to imagine a rise to power like Hitlers where people are shipped off to camps. It couldn't happen there is to much of a third eye on the world. People see everything in this day of cameras and the internet. However, what Bush is doing is amazing when the deaths of 15,000 + innocent Iraqis are overlooked by the "Liberal, which i believe is BS" media.

And no the Media is not liberal. I majored in media communication. The actors, directors, artists of the industry may be. But the gatekeepers are very very conservitive. Disney blocking Mike Moore is a great example. CBS owning Westinghouse which creates Nukes and weapons. Deep into the media it is very conservative, just because a celeb hates the war doesn't mean a thing. The only power he has is granted to him through gate keepers. The gatekeepers are rich powerful white men. And we all know who the majority is in the Republican party. Keep that in mind.

thanks for listening. It's nice to debate....I must say even though the term liberal and conservatives are being tossed a bit this is a pretty good debate...usually people are only like " Your wrong dumb ass" So at least we can have a good discussion.

Thanks
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Postby Transmogrifier » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:07 pm

wkelly91 wrote:
Transmogrifier wrote:While I agree that the Hitler-Bush comparisons are absurd, saying that the right didn't spew hate speech at Clinton is likewise absurd.


Can you give an example? I do recall him being roundly criticized for his infidelity, denegrading the oval office, and lying under oath, all facts.

I do not recall him being equated with mass-murderers (certainly not a fact), or megalomaniacs (not a fact).

So please give some examples of similar hate speech. :-?


I think Bush too has denegrated the oval office, by the way.

Your faith in the rationality of Conservatives is amazing.

How's this: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/3450/hitler.html

Or this? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/568689/posts

Or how about Conservative fave Coulter? (about liberals in general):
"Liberals have a preternatural gift for striking a position on the side of treason," she writes on the first page of the book, Treason. "Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence."

"While undermining victory in the Cold War, liberals dedicated themselves to mainstreaming Communist ideals at home... Betraying the manifest national defense objectives of the country is only part of the left's treasonous scheme. They aim to destroy America from the inside with their relentless attacks on morality and the truth. (p. 289)"

"Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant. Fifty years of treason hasn't slowed them down. (p. 16)"

And no, this isn't from reputable people. But you don't see reputable people comparing Bush to Hitler.
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Postby Nomar4prez » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:16 pm

1. I am in no way a political person, but I do think the comparison to Hitler and Bush is a bit extreme. Hitler savagely tortured and killed 2,000,000+ Jews. The 15,000 Iraqis killed were killed in combat. Civilian deaths happen in EVERY war or conflict. I'm sure when we went oversea's to stop Hitler, we killed many thousands of innocent Civilians.

2. And anyone educated past 8th grade should understand that our fight against terrorism is not against Islam. I think the majority of Americans understands this.

3. Some people believe Bush attacked Iraq for Oil and revenge against Saddam for trying to kill his father. I think Iraq HAD WMD's, but we gave them almost a year to disarm and surrender. There better not be any WMD's found in Iraq, or Saddam is even more idiotic than I imagined.

Lastly, your wrong dumb ass :-b
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Postby acsguitar » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:55 pm

Ok when you say civilians are killed in combat thats one thing when they are being rescued and their is no other way around the rescue the the unfortunate civilian death...however, we went to Iraq on our own accord without Iraqi civilians needing to be desperately rescued...Iraq stayed in its own country...most of the time :-D and wasn't off invading all of eurpoe like WWII....Vietnam again we killed lots of civilians...go to http://www.Iraqbodycount.org or .net whatever it is...there you will see things like...old man shot after soldier though he was carrying missle launcher..turned out to be a cane...

Excuse me but I am a college graduate and have took a nice class on public addres that addressed Hitlers speeches as well as other peoples speeches....Hitler is worse then Bush....But do you not see the comparrisons at all?? An 8th grade education....you need to think before you type...Here is a situation....Your family gets blown to pieces are you A.) Excited that they are dead because another country is coming to take you over....or B.) Sad because your family is dead when a year ago they were very much alive and not in much danger from Saddams regime unless they broke the law...Listen Saddam was cruel, hitler was cruel, they both killed people...But so has Bush...In a totally offensive war...this is not defensive like WWII this is totally offensive like Vietnam...Why did we take this mission upon ourselves?? However, Bush is very much like Hitler the comparrison I think Is very good..If you don't believe it fine...but the comparrison is pretty acurate...
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Postby acsguitar » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:59 pm

Oh and about this not being a war against Isalm...Maybee officialy it is not but we are going in there trying to install our religio-democracy upon them...therefore it is against Isalm in some ways..Islam is their government and we are trying to overthrow their governement....to them governement and state are 1...so overthrowing their government is the same as overthrowing their religion...And what Im saying is that there are hell of a lot of dumb americans who see that and it is only creating more hate towards Islam and muslims...

by the way this is what i think of the RED SOX :-t :-t :-t :-t



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Re: Comparison Bush and Hitler

Postby wkelly91 » Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:30 pm

acsguitar wrote:Ok here are my points on why you can compare Bush to Hitler:

That I have to address this is ridiculous, but here goes

Let me clarify some things before I start:

A.) The holocaust was an extremely horrible situation
B.) The crusades where also extremely horrible if someone could give me an estimate of the deaths that would be great.
C.) Bush is not Hitler; However, the similarities are their and even comparing your leader to someone like Hitler is not a good thing at all!
D.) If another Republican was running I would not vote for him due to many key differences. However, that does not mean I would compare him to Hitler.
E.) Please at least read and feel free to comment as always.


Both use public speech, and especially catch phrases to inspire loyalty to the "mother" country. Doesn't every politician including Democrats fill this description?Hitler was more animated with his speech but still Hitler saying things over and over again were propaganda and used to inspire a massive group to head his cause. Bush is always saying, "The Evil", "Bad Man" "Terrorist", "WMD's". What other words would you use to desribe terrorists? societally disfunctional psychpaths?He has no real points but uses sayings over and over again to create a bond with the listener. Repitition is key! Again, every politician Also, look how anyone not with Hitler was against Germany; Does that remind you of what is happening today....if you don't support Bush's decision then you are against the country.

Hitler ordered his "Holocaust" (Sp) based on pre-made religious judgements. Actually Hitler was not a religious man, he USED religion and religious people to his ends

Bush has ordered his cleansing of the middle east through his religious opinions. Aka: God's America, His "Crusade" (He actually said this) against Terror. This is so ridiculous it isn't worthy

Neither men are actually murders but their actions led to many many deaths. I guess Franklin Deleno Roosevelt and Harry Truman are murderers too? Of course Number wise you cannot compare the Death of 2,000,000 jews to 15,000 Iraqi citizens. However, in this day and age it would be hard to kill 2,000,000 jews without the entire world coming after you. These days it wouldn't happen. Now just hear me out. I say 15,000 innocent, meaning non armed non militant iraqis, including women and children, is comparable to the death of 2,000,000 jews...Just think how much faster news travels these days. No matter how you put it innocent lives have been lost that would not have been lost if not for this mans egomaniacal actions. So I guess they would prefer to die at the hands of Sadam? As technology gets better the loss of lives should diminish due to rapid news reports and quick responses in terms of mobility.

Both are trying to live up to an impossible dream. Hitler was tormented as a child and failed as an artist. His only big break was when he joined the small, 12 person or so, Nazi party. His goal was to prove that he was not a failure. He needed somewhere to place his blame and his failures of the past.

Bush needs to do the same thing. I don't know where you get your information, very sad Whether it be failed oil deals or failed managing of the Texas Rangers. Bush has always been that fumbling child in the shadow of his father. He had cocaine problems and has been arrested for Drunken Driving. "He who is without sin cast the first stone" all politicians have skeletons in their past. I can overlook past discressions. What I can't overlook is politicians of any party breaking the law while serving in office. The main thing that In my opinion that relates to Hitler's rise to power is the need to achieve where he has failed. Let us not forget Bush failed as a military pilot. Where did you hear this? Now he has the chance again. As commander in chief to prove that he is a true military man. So what does he do. As soon as he gets his chance he heads up a military campaign. Although Hitler and Bush have no "Real" military backgrounds other then being discharged, they both are Military heads of their country and with that power they have created death and destruction. There will to achieve overlooks their will to be be rational.

The use of fear in both campaigns is also evident. Bush wants to scare the country into believing there is more of a problem then their is. If you don't think that terrorism is a huge problem you are deluded. Alkida isn't going away. The fact that Israel lives with terrorism doesn't make me feel any better about getting blown up. Lets ask the relatives of 911 if they think terrorism is overblown Yes terrorism is a problem and always has been a problem. Excuse me but hijacking have been happening for decades now. It's amazing that 9/11 didn't happen in the 70's 80's or 90's. I believe the fact is that in Israel over 300,000 bombs are found a year! So obviously our scale of terror is not anywhere close to theirs. However, people their still go on living normal lives. Bush's terror agenda distracts from the real problems at hand; Diplomacy, Commercialism, Religion. In essence he is saying as long as we can get these people everything that is wrong will be right! No he is just trying to secure Americans so they can live their lives while not in fear.

Hitler said to his people the reason for all of your problems, especially economic, are due to the Jews or the Unclean. This distracts from the true problems and uses the scapegoat theory to bring the country together.

Islam= Scapegoat for all problems; We take no responsibility for any problems (Israel, Spreading of Democracy to a Theocracy, Globalism) Muslims are not the problem, Muslim extremests are the problem. They will not rest till the American way of life is destroyed.

Jews= Scapegoat for all problems;

Through these scapegoats a common enemy is formed creating a strong bond throughout the country. The scapegoat is extremely powerful. I have talked to many people how just want to Kill Islams...They are usually uneducated people who have listened to the speeches and fear spread by the bush administration. Those same people were influenced by Hitler in the 30's and 40's. You will always have ignorant people who will want to eliminate some sector of society. On the extreme right-Muslims, Homo-sexuals, Blacks etc. On the extreme left-fundimentalist Christions, Catholics etc. Now I know the goal is to get the "bad guys" but to many americans the bad guys are not just fundamentalist militant Islams but all Islams. Now this might not be the goal of the Administration to hate all islams; but that is the way it is portrayed. By who? This reminds me of the other day I was listening to 94.7 rock in Washington, D.C. where I live and where fear is always high. 94.7 played a cat stevens song and a man called in saying supporting cat stevens was supporting terrorism. All that is jewish is rotten; Does this ring any bells? Another ignorant fool, I like Cat Stevens, however I don't agree with his religious beliefs. If he wants to be Muslim It's his right.

There will never be another Hitler; In this day and age it is almost impossible to imagine a rise to power like Hitlers where people are shipped off to camps. It couldn't happen there is to much of a third eye on the world. People see everything in this day of cameras and the internet. However, what Bush is doing is amazing when the deaths of 15,000 + innocent Iraqis are overlooked by the "Liberal, which i believe is BS" media. How can you say it is being ignored? All they show on the news is the bad stuff, soldiers dieing, wedding parties blown up (Wedding party, yea I believe that)

And no the Media is not liberal. I majored in media communication. The actors, directors, artists of the industry may be. But the gatekeepers are very very conservitive. Disney blocking Mike Moore is a great example. Because they thought it would be bad for business, that was a purely financial decision. CBS owning Westinghouse which creates Nukes and weapons. Deep into the media it is very conservative, just because a celeb hates the war doesn't mean a thing. The only power he has is granted to him through gate keepers. The gatekeepers are rich powerful white men. And we all know who the majority is in the Republican party. Keep that in mind.

thanks for listening. It's nice to debate....I must say even though Wrong, the gate-keepers are the editorial decision makers at these papers, movie studios, and television conglomerates. Yes many of these are owned by large corporations, but since when is a large corporation a bunch of white guys? the term liberal and conservatives are being tossed a bit this is a pretty good debate...usually people are only like " Your wrong dumb ass" So at least we can have a good discussion.

Thanks


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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:32 pm

I do not recall him being equated with mass-murderers (certainly not a fact), or megalomaniacs (not a fact).

So please give some examples of similar hate speech


Okay, no problem. George Will, respected Republican Pundit, called Clinton a "rapist." Jerry Falwell sold tapes calling him a "serial killer." Ken Starr made a list of Clinton "murders." "The Clinton Chronicals" were sold on various right-wing programs and trumpeted on the editorial pages of the WSJ.

Do you know what the real difference between then and now is? The people calling Bush those things are some internet nutjobs with a few people reading. Those that called Clinton those names were right-wing leaders and the media.
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Postby wkelly91 » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:01 pm

Absolutely Adequate wrote:
I do not recall him being equated with mass-murderers (certainly not a fact), or megalomaniacs (not a fact).

So please give some examples of similar hate speech


Okay, no problem. George Will, respected Republican Pundit, called Clinton a "rapist." Ok, let's call him an accused rapist instead Jerry Falwell sold tapes calling him a "serial killer." Falwell is not a respected figure on the national stage, but that's good. Ken Starr made a list of Clinton "murders." "The Clinton Chronicals" were sold on various right-wing programs and trumpeted on the editorial pages of the WSJ. Ok, I agree on that one
Do you know what the real difference between then and now is? The people calling Bush those things are some internet nutjobs Is Michael Moore an internet nut-job? with a few people reading. Those that called Clinton those names were right-wing leaders and the media.
Some good points but this last paragraph is not accurate.
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