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It's early but, MLB MVP's and Cy leaders till now?

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Postby jbones733 » Tue May 25, 2004 4:46 pm

but again W Mora, the birds are a .500 team like the tigers.

The question was not who has best stats,

Question was WHO IS AL MVP 04 , to me that means if season ended today who would win the MVP

& there is no doubt in the workld it would be either Vlad G or Manny Ramirez - 1st place teams win mvp (sides arod) i would say 80%^ of the time
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Postby blankman » Tue May 25, 2004 5:09 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:Can someone give me the argument about why Vlad should win over Manny?

Vlad has carried his team--with Guillen--while injuries have hit the Angels of late.

Manny started the season with the team on his back with Nomar and Trot down.

Stats:

Avg. OBP SLG OPS Runs RBI HRs SB
Manny .351 .430 .625 1.055 27 29 11 1
Vlad .346 .397 .603 1.000 41 36 11 1

So, basically, Manny leads in everything he can control--as we know here at the Cafe, Vlad only leads in the two categories that his team controls, Runs and RBIs.



Yes, we at the Cafe may know that Runs and RBI aren't great indicators of performance, but do the ACTUAL voters? I don't think they do and if they do; IMO they don't care and just look at the numbers and then factor in "who they like more or who is the better story" (Ichiro over Giambi anyone? - biggest joke I've ever seen especially when Boone was arguably just as valuable to the M's that year)

If the voters had to decide between the two, I think they would go with Vlad, taking into account the big gap in Runs and RBI the sheer number of injuries in the Anahiem lineup.

Personally, I'd take Vlad, with Manny a very close second.

As for end of the year I'll go with Jeter. Watch Jeter win the Gold Glove ;-) , come back from .190 to lead the league in AVG and score 130 Runs :-b
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Postby Amazinz » Tue May 25, 2004 5:14 pm

The problem with the MVP award, CY Young, RoY, Gold Gloves, etc., is that there is no definitive judging system. I'd say that a lot of the voters do understand the game but there are probably just as many nimwits who don't. These awards become popularity contests just as much as fan all-star voting.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Tue May 25, 2004 5:19 pm

blankman wrote:
Yes, we at the Cafe may know that Runs and RBI aren't great indicators of performance, but do the ACTUAL voters?


Great point. They don't, and Vlad would probably win because of that.


blankman wrote:Personally, I'd take Vlad, with Manny a very close second.
But you take Vlad too! Why? Are you falling into the Runs/RBI trap?

Or do you actually think he's made more of a difference because of the more high-profile (in season, too) injuries? I think, part of the thinking is that people are looking at Glaus and Anderson being done for the year. All well and good. But we're talking about NOW. And Glaus and Anderson contributed a lot to this team's current position.

The Sox are ahead of the Yankees despite two of their top guys--for every single game!!! That's a huge difference. I have yet to hear a logical argument about why Vlad wins over Manny right now.

A 1.5 game difference in the standings does not wash over the stats.

blankman wrote:As for end of the year I'll go with Jeter. Watch Jeter win the Gold Glove ;-) , come back from .190 to lead the league in AVG and score 130 Runs :-b


Right. I expect Jeter to bounce back, but no way does he lead the league in average, nor does he win a gold glove. That's a reach. ;-7
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Postby The Jury » Tue May 25, 2004 5:21 pm

I wouldn't overlook Jason Schmidt. After taking a few starts to get warmed up, Schmidt is back to his Cy Young challenging ways as he was last year.

Even if Graves saves 70 I doubt he'll take the NL Cy, though it would be hard to leave him out of contention.

I've got Mulder with a better chance than Hudson for the AL Cy, and Schilling in the mix also. And you can never count out Pedro - he's filthy and always will be :-D

I'd have Pudge as the most valuable player thus far, as he's leading the Tigers out of MLB's basement.

And I'll go out on a limb and say that Thome will lead the Majors in homers this year, with Bonds hitting about 43.
[quote:4fef447375="Geek"]The odds of the AL MVP coming from the American League are looking pretty good.[/quote]
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Tue May 25, 2004 5:30 pm

AL:

MVP: Vlad... even now, I still think he'd get it, Pudge and Manny are nice choices, but the Angels have the best record in baseball, and Vlad has the best numbers, as meaningless as some of them are.

CY: Schilling... throughout the course of the season, he's still the most consistant, not to mention the closest thing to dominant, starting pitcher in the AL. It helps that he plays for the Sox, as he'll get 17+ wins, while posting an ERA around 3.00 and a Whip around 1.10

NL:

MVP: Brian Giles... ok, this is where I just want to be different, but I do see the Padres winning the NL West, and Giles is the catalyst of that offense. He wont post ridiculous numbers, but he will top 30 and 100 in HRs and RBIs respectively, while being among the league leaders in OPS. I would take Bonds, except I don't see the Giants sniffing the postseason this year.

CY: Randy Johnson... Barring injury, RJ will be the best pitcher in baseball this year. He will win at least 15 games, which isn't necessarily great, but he will continue to be dominant, and the perfect game is worth a LOT in the Cy Young voting if it's close down the stretch between he and Clemens.

Furthermore, I'd just like to say that as hot as Clemens is right now, he MUST get hit sooner or later. He had some stretches last year, notably the five game pursuit of 300, in which he showed more than a couple of chinks in the armor. He plays in a pretty hitter friendly park at Minute Maid, and will get some tough offenses like Chicago and St. Louis as the year progresses. If he keeps up at his current pace, he could certainly beat Johnson, but I'll go with my gut and pick Johnson.
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Postby blankman » Tue May 25, 2004 5:49 pm

CBMGreatOne wrote:
I'd just like to say that as hot as Clemens is right now, he MUST get hit sooner or later.


Did you see his last start? He got beat up. So, he's already been hit.
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Postby donut » Tue May 25, 2004 5:51 pm

one area in which i feel vlad is considerably better than manny is on defense. vlad has good speed in the outfield(though he never dives after balls) and has a monster arm. if defense counts towards mvp voting vlad has out classed manny in this categorey. vald leads the majors with 6 outfield assists and has already saved a game this year with his arm.
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Postby blankman » Tue May 25, 2004 5:59 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:
blankman wrote:Personally, I'd take Vlad, with Manny a very close second.
But you take Vlad too! Why? Are you falling into the Runs/RBI trap?

Or do you actually think he's made more of a difference because of the more high-profile (in season, too) injuries? I think, part of the thinking is that people are looking at Glaus and Anderson being done for the year. All well and good. But we're talking about NOW. And Glaus and Anderson contributed a lot to this team's current position.

The Sox are ahead of the Yankees despite two of their top guys--for every single game!!! That's a huge difference. I have yet to hear a logical argument about why Vlad wins over Manny right now.

A 1.5 game difference in the standings does not wash over the stats.


I think I may be swayed by the RBI Runs numbers. If they were closer, I wouldn't have a problem going with Manny. IMO RBI and Runs DO amount to SOMETHING. How much is the question.

You bring up a lot of good points- in season injuries etc so, I'll give you this, Manny and Vlad in a tie thus far. I don't see reason to put Manny ahead over Vlad, given numbers, which I still believe count for something. And given the circumstances around the season, I can't make the arguement that Vlad has been more valuable thus far, so I'll call a tie. I'd like to see who has more Win Shares thus far. Maybe I'd then go with Manny.

Transmogrifier wrote:
blankman wrote:As for end of the year I'll go with Jeter. Watch Jeter win the Gold Glove ;-) , come back from .190 to lead the league in AVG and score 130 Runs :-b


Right. I expect Jeter to bounce back, but no way does he lead the league in average, nor does he win a gold glove. That's a reach. ;-7


You realize I was joking right?

He certainly has the talent to win the batting title, just not this year because of his awful start. Obviously he's no GG either, but he's better than most people here give him credit for.
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Postby blankman » Tue May 25, 2004 6:01 pm

donut wrote:one area in which i feel vlad is considerably better than manny is on defense. vlad has good speed in the outfield(though he never dives after balls) and has a monster arm. if defense counts towards mvp voting vlad has out classed manny in this categorey. vald leads the majors with 6 outfield assists and has already saved a game this year with his arm.


A good point. That was the Posada play wasn't it? If it is that one, I should point out that Posada was safe though !+) He was NEVER even tagged with the ball, just a glove with no ball in it and he beat the "tag" anyway. :-P
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