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is moises alou the most clutch hitter in baseball?

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Postby LCBOY » Sat May 22, 2004 4:56 pm

Tavish wrote:
Why is hitting in the 2nd inning different from hitting in the 9th? Please explain.

Is there a difference between these two situations with 2 on and 2 out and losing by 1?
1) Hitting in the 2nd inning of opening day
2) Hitting in the 9th inning of game 7 in the World Series

I consider clutch to be performing well when the pressure is on and the things you do make a major difference.



This is a fallacy. You're are trying to use an extreme contrast that doesn't exist in the average major league game. The average major league game situation is NOT the same as the 9th inning of Game 7. My point is that most major league hitters are increibling focused individuals. How thay can concentrate with 50,000 fans yelling in their ears and still hit is amazing.
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Postby KULCAT » Sun May 23, 2004 5:16 am

LCBOY wrote:
KULCAT wrote:Saying there is no CLUTCH is like saying there are not tighter situations in baseballs and that driving a run in the second inning of 2-1 game is the same as if it had been done in the 9º. Clutch players, thats another debate


Why is hitting in the 2nd inning different from hitting in the 9th? Please explain.


If youre losing and you dont score you have 7 innings to make up for it. In the 9º? See ya tomorrow. More pressure, thats all
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Postby KULCAT » Sun May 23, 2004 5:19 am

LCBOY wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Why is hitting in the 2nd inning different from hitting in the 9th? Please explain.

Is there a difference between these two situations with 2 on and 2 out and losing by 1?
1) Hitting in the 2nd inning of opening day
2) Hitting in the 9th inning of game 7 in the World Series

I consider clutch to be performing well when the pressure is on and the things you do make a major difference.



This is a fallacy. You're are trying to use an extreme contrast that doesn't exist in the average major league game. The average major league game situation is NOT the same as the 9th inning of Game 7. My point is that most major league hitters are increibling focused individuals. How thay can concentrate with 50,000 fans yelling in their ears and still hit is amazing.


They might be as focused as you want, but their still human. And when the game is on the line the whole thing changes. Anybody who thinks there is no pressure in baseball and that players are like robots and that it doesnt affect them one bit that the game is on their hands either hasnt played ball in a long time or is spending way too much time on the playstation
"Nothing is this world worth remembering was ever accomplished without Pasion"-Hegel
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Postby reiser » Sun May 23, 2004 9:05 am

eftda wrote:
Madison wrote:Use the "search" feature to find the many debates as to if clutch even exists or not. ;-)


I don't believe in Cluth


good-enjoy Sheffield this October :)

I really enjoy and use many of the Sabermetric Stats (dERA in particular), but this disbelief in clutch performing just defies logic.

in fact, how about this: Greg Norman.
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Postby afromangettindrunk » Sun May 23, 2004 12:59 pm

KULCAT wrote:
They might be as focused as you want, but their still human. And when the game is on the line the whole thing changes. Anybody who thinks there is no pressure in baseball and that players are like robots and that it doesnt affect them one bit that the game is on their hands either hasnt played ball in a long time or is spending way too much time on the playstation


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Postby Tavish » Sun May 23, 2004 1:20 pm

LCBOY wrote:This is a fallacy. You're are trying to use an extreme contrast that doesn't exist in the average major league game. The average major league game situation is NOT the same as the 9th inning of Game 7. My point is that most major league hitters are increibling focused individuals. How thay can concentrate with 50,000 fans yelling in their ears and still hit is amazing.


Sure it was an extreme example, but it was the easiest way I could explain my position. We can talk about an average major league game. How about these situations with 2 on, 2 out, ninth inning.

1) down by a run
2) up by seven

Is there a difference in the amount of pressure to perform? In which situation would the crowd be yelling louder, forcing the players to focus even more?

Maybe we agree, I don't think there is a such thing as a clutch hitter. There isn't any statistical evidence that shows certain players excel when pressure is at it's highest, good hitters tend to be good hitters no matter what the situation. But there is absolutely such a thing as clutch hits (most of the examples given so far). There is probably a better chance of proving certain hitters implode during clutch situations than proving there are certain ones excel.
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Postby Yankees SUCK » Sun May 23, 2004 3:36 pm

David Ortiz has to be mentioned in this thread.
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Postby Bloody Nipples » Sun May 23, 2004 4:36 pm

Zito is God wrote:Out of all the actives there are a lot of personal choices. If you were down one, bases loaded and 2 outs in the ninth, many people would take diffrent players. Some good choices are Manny Ramirez, A-Rod, Pujols, Rafael palmeiro, Jeter, and, of course, Bonds.


Well if you put it that way, then the answer is obviously Bonds. The pitcher would probably intentionally walk him cause they'd rather give up the lead and go into extra innings than lose the game on a grand-slam. :-D It sounds dumb, but you really never know, especially if its Jack McWalk managing the opposing team. :-°

LCBOY wrote:Why is hitting in the 2nd inning different from hitting in the 9th? Please explain.


Have you ever played a sport in your life? If so, you would know that there is way more importance placed on a play in the last seconds of a game than a play in the beginning of the game, especially when the game is close. I have a couple examples to give you:

1) Hockey: Overtime. You are the goalie. Every shot that gets slapped your way is could be the winning goal. Every save you make makes you a hero, but that one goal you let in makes you the goat. Pressure? No way.

2) Soccer: Penalty kicks. You are the last kicker out of 5 on your team. You are down 4-3. If you make the goal, your team gets another chance. If you miss, you are booed by millions of fans around the world. Pressure? Never.

3) Baseball: Bottom of the ninth. Your team is down by 2 and the bases are loaded with 2 outs. You are up. Every time you make contact the game could be over, with your team winning or the other team winning. Or you could tie it. Or you could strike out. Thousands of fans around you are screaming and yelling, willing you to hit the ball to one of the places on the field where a fielder is not present. The count reaches 3-2. You swing and miss, you go home. You take a strike, you go home. Take a ball, you leave the game up to the next hitter. You swing and hit the ball, you have a small chance of the ball landing where you can reach base safely. But if it does fall, you are the hero, the champion, the greatest player of all time, if only for a day. Pressure? Not for you, I guess.

In all these situations, there is a hell of a lot of pressure, a lot of importance placed on the ensuing play. If you come through, you have done well in the clutch. If you screw up, you are banished to the lowest low of sport. The difference between the outcomes of two plays is what defines clutch. If the difference is great, than the situation is defined as a clutch situation. If small, the situation is simply normal.

One equality is true no matter what you think: clutch=glory.

Why else would thousands of kids in their back yards whisper to themselves, "Bottom of ninth, bases loaded, two out. Giants down by 2. Up steps Bonds with a 3 and 2 count. Here's the pitch... He swings, and........"

That, my friends, is clutch.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Sun May 23, 2004 6:41 pm

Amazinz wrote:For the sake of argument lets pretend that clutch does exist then Jeter gets my vote. Don't forget his intangibles. :-)



I assume you're being sarcastic, but just to clarify: There are no clutch players--cite all the subjective analysis that you like, but the numbers prove otherwise--and Derek Jeter certainly isn't clutch.

He has performed very poorly in clutch situations. It's all in our heads. And Tim McCarver's.

Here are the numbers, just in case you doubt me:

Transmogrifier wrote:OK, I hope this ends the "Jeter is clutch" debate forever, although I feel it won't.


Here are his career postseason stats in "clutch" situations:

Runners in scoring position: .210/.355/.306

Runners on base: .245/.345/.329

And here are his postseason stats (over the last four seasons, as the stats are unavailble for longer than that) in "close and late" situations, defined as "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck," is:

.176/.263/.323

I tried to dig up these numbers myself, but I didn't have the time, and came across the source for this, at Aaron's baseball blog:
http://www.aarongleeman.com/2003_10_26_ ... 3513372636

I'm back. Sorta.

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Postby sooner711 » Mon May 24, 2004 12:24 am

Ask Rick Ankiel about pressure...
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