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The Big Bad Veto

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Postby bleach168 » Wed May 19, 2004 4:53 pm

Wow, feel the love! ;-)

I feel like I'm the scapegoat for all the trades that you guys have had vetoed over the years. But I didn't veto any of your trades, did I? On top of that, I never will veto any of your guys' trades because like I said earlier, I make sure to avoid playing in leagues with people who hate vetoing. That's enough to keep things civil during the season. Please don't take your frustrations about anonymous vetoers out on me. At least I talk to the people I'm playing with. At least when I veto, I post directly on the public boards my reasoning.

Once upon a time, I was just like you guys. I didn't like the idea of vetoing and wondered why Yahoo would include that into the system. I mean, if people were cheating, I'm sure Yahoo would deal with it. But then I played in a league where one team assembled the all-first round picks team (okay it wasn't all first round picks, he had some second and third rounders too). It was disgusting and not fun for anyone.

Ever since then, I've adopted my new playing style. Call me evil, elitist (see the sig), or whatever, I feel very strongly that if I didn't play it this way, I wouldn't be playing fantasy baseball at all. And I play with like-minded individuals! Sheesh! I don't get anywhere near the crap from the people I do veto as I do on these boards.
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Postby rolenfan » Wed May 19, 2004 4:54 pm

bleach168 wrote:
The guy told you that he felt Delgado would have a better year.


No he didn't say that. He told me Delgado would equal A-Rod.

Same thing. He felt them equal, he preferred to have Delgado, your opinion of his judgement is not relevant.

bleach168 wrote:Put these two points together, and by his reasoning, he's not even gaining anything by making this trade. WHY TRADE IF YOU DON'T EVEN THINK YOU'RE IMPROVING YOUR TEAM??? That's why I vetoed it.

So what? That is not your call to make. It is his and his alone.

From your other reply, yes, you are hurting the system. Not just if you are 10% wrong as another poster put it, but by impposing your opinions on others. That is not the purpose of the veto. You are hurting the sytem by preventing other managers to make a trade that they want, for whatever reason, just because you don't agree with their logic. That is hurting the system in a big way and could make the others in your league decide to give up playing at all.

The fact that you have voted against one of 15 trades is not relevant, eitehr, if it wasn't for the right reason. You can cringe - I do - but don't think your opinion is what is right for everyone.
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Postby bleach168 » Wed May 19, 2004 5:01 pm

Ok.. let's say hypothetically, I suspect collusion. Is it then okay to veto? Or do I need proof? Or do I have to wait until 3-4 lop-sided deals go through before vetoing? But after 3-4 trades, isn't it already too late?
"And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere. But now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear." - The Rains of Castamere
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Postby waffle_prince » Wed May 19, 2004 5:04 pm

rolenfan wrote:"Overbay? I thought I was getting getting Bonds who hits the ball over the bay!"


Nice.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Wed May 19, 2004 5:05 pm

OK - I am the commish of a league mostly made up of a close group of friends.

My thoughts on vetoing are similar to Transmorgifier. Pretty much anything goes unless collusion is obvious.

Well, what if collusion is not so obvious?

We have a situation right now where one owner has a history of finding the weakest owners and trying to rob them blind - its his style. He makes up for a lack of baseball knowledge with a profound understanding of salesmanship and his competitors. He plays with a win-at-all-cost mentality. Typical of many fantasy players, but not conusive to friend leagues. It wouldnt suprise anyone if we found out he slipped a close friend a 10 spot to make sure a trade goes through - however, thats not the sort of thing that becomes news when both parties remain closed lipped. There is no proof of collusion. What we decide to do in the fututre - whether we decide to include him or not in future leagues isnt the point. Thats another can of worms.

Here is the trade:

Manny and Dotel for Dye and Looper.

The one owner said he proposed a trade and it was accepted. The other owner has made no post about why he is giving up his first rd pick for a waiver wire pickup.

For those of you like Trans, who agree that vetoing should be done when there is obvious collusion, what would you do?
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Postby Madvillain » Wed May 19, 2004 5:06 pm

bleach168 wrote:I feel like I'm the scapegoat for all the trades that you guys have had vetoed over the years. But I didn't veto any of your trades, did I? On top of that, I never will veto any of your guys' trades because like I said earlier, I make sure to avoid playing in leagues with people who hate vetoing. That's enough to keep things civil during the season. Please don't take your frustrations about anonymous vetoers out on me. At least I talk to the people I'm playing with. At least when I veto, I post directly on the public boards my reasoning.


I've never had a trade vetoed in my life. I play with a group of friends who respect the idea that we all have different teams and different game plans and are all intelligent enough to think for ourselves.
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Postby WhiteHot » Wed May 19, 2004 5:07 pm

Anyone think Craig Wilson of the Pirates for Billy Wagner is a vetoable trade? It went through our league right after Wags got hurt. I opposed it. Top 3 closer for flash-in-the-pan utilityman.
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Postby d18Mike » Wed May 19, 2004 5:08 pm

In most of the leagues that I've played in, folks who veto as a means of imposing their beliefs as opposed to quelling obvious collusion send the group into a downward spiral of retaliatory vetos. This, IMHO, doesn't improve the competitive spirit of the league. It just pollutes the atmosphere.

But to each his own ...
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Postby matmat » Wed May 19, 2004 5:09 pm

bleach168 wrote:You seem like a knowledgeable person, Rolenfan. Let me ask you, would you really trade Bagwell for Overbay?


depends. do we count doubles? is it a keeper? are any other players involved in the trade? (challange trades, btw, are a completely different animal altogether)

I also have a problem with the term "veto" when more than one vote is concerned... the whole point of a veto is that ONE person gets to veto something and their single vote stops things. The method yahoo uses is more along the lines of league agreement and as such at least half the votes should be needed to stop a trade.

I hate the veto. I wish all managers were responsible enough to not collude and make all trades with the intent of improving their team. ahhh.... utopia.
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Postby rolenfan » Wed May 19, 2004 5:10 pm

bleach168 wrote:Wow, feel the love! ;-)

I feel like I'm the scapegoat for all the trades that you guys have had vetoed over the years.

Yeah, you are. Nothing personal, but you are responding as them, so you are the scapegoat.

bleach168 wrote:But then I played in a league where one team assembled the all-first round picks team (okay it wasn't all first round picks, he had some second and third rounders too). It was disgusting and not fun for anyone.

This, bleach, is what the veto is for. Nobody here would have said you were wrong to veto those moves. You, though, have taken it beyond that. You've moved from applying a veto because of unethical practices to applying it based on your opinion of whether the trade is right for the teams involved. I wouldn't want to build my team based on your ego. If the rest of your league operates the same way as you, then please do us all a favor and keep your league intact. You guys deserve each other and we don't you joining ours.
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