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The Greatest Right-Handed Pitcher of alltime

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The Greatest Right-Handed Pitcher of ALLTIME?

Walter Johnson
22
38%
Pete Alexander
1
2%
Christy Mathewson
3
5%
Roger Clemens
13
22%
Pedro Martinez
6
10%
Greg Maddux
4
7%
Tom Seaver
4
7%
Bob Gibson
5
9%
 
Total votes : 58

Postby LCBOY » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:09 pm

DK wrote:If you find a pitcher with high K rates, low BB rates, and low HR rates, you've got a great pitcher.

Wow! DK and I agree on something! What has the world come to? :-D
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Postby DK » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:24 pm

LCBOY wrote:
DK wrote:If you find a pitcher with high K rates, low BB rates, and low HR rates, you've got a great pitcher.

Wow! DK and I agree on something! What has the world come to? :-D


Hey, look! I see a flying pig outside my window. :D
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Postby Rkiivs » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:32 pm

LCBOY wrote:
frog99 wrote:
LCBOY wrote:There is one thing missing here. Pedro has yet to enter his decline phase of his career. Once he does enter this phase of his career, his traditional numbers and his saber-numbers will decline.


like how Randy Johnson's Roger Clemen's numbers have declined?
...As for Pedro, he is not especially durable. He's never been known as a "workhorse" like Clemens and Johnson.


Thank goodness, LCBOY. I thought I was the only one wondering what Pedro was doing in this poll. In fact, right now, I don't even put him up as a hall of famer due to his lack of innings he's worked.

I really have a hard time arguing for/against pitchers that were way before my generation (by several generations, even). But I would have to speak up for Lefty Grove. He pitched his entire career in hitter's parks and led in ERA 9 times.

BTW, does anyone consider win shares as a viable measuring stick?

EDIT: Doh, right-handed. Forget it. Walter Johnson is my vote.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:49 am

Pedro not a Hall of Famer?!?!
Just compare him against Koufax.
Koufax - Wins 165, 2.76 ERA , 2324.3 innings
Pedro - Wins 166, 2.58 ERA, 2079 innings.
Also take into account that Pedro has pitched during an offensive era and it is a no brainer to me.
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Postby Rkiivs » Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:29 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:Pedro not a Hall of Famer?!?!
Just compare him against Koufax.
Koufax - Wins 165, 2.76 ERA , 2324.3 innings
Pedro - Wins 166, 2.58 ERA, 2079 innings.
Also take into account that Pedro has pitched during an offensive era and it is a no brainer to me.


As of now, if Pedro didn't pitch any more, then I wouldn't count him as a shoo-in for the HOF.

Looking at the stats you provided (both pitchers are at about the same number of seasons right now) there is a glaring difference in IP. The difference is about an entire season's worth of innings. That tells me that Koufax was a work horse and truly pitched in his wins (meaning we pitched more than the min. 5 innings). In fact, Koufax has 137 CG; Pedro has 41 CG.

Pedro's never led in IP in the league and led in wins only once.

The 2002 season was a banner year for him (though lacking again in IP) but production fell last year and he's getting older (33, I believe). His consistency and shoulder are suspect. Pedro may need longevity to make a more convincing case for the HOF.

I don't doubt that when he is able to pitch that he can be the best, but what kind of HOF pitcher gets in that can't pitch 200 innings a season? We'll see how it goes for him between now and his retirement.
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Postby HOOTIE » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:06 pm

Innings are important no doubt. But Pedro has been so good, that it has less impact in his case, just like Koufax. I think if he can get to 3,000 innings, without hurting his era or win % alot, he probably would be the best modern day sp. As for win shares, lets take a look. Even though Koufax had 300 more innings to acrue win shares, Pedro has 208 to Koufax 194. Pedros a lock in my book. He accomplished what Koufax did on a lower mound, facing a dh, in tougher home parks. No one really pitches the innings that Koufax did in a season, because Koufax got 41 starts compared to 33-34 nowdays.
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Postby Rkiivs » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:15 am

Some good points, Hootie. Thanks for sharing.

I've just recently started wrapping my head around Win Shares and wondered how much stock general Cafe-ites put in it. I just picked up Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract and it's been interesting so far.
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Postby LCBOY » Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:15 pm

Rkiivs wrote:Some good points, Hootie. Thanks for sharing.

I've just recently started wrapping my head around Win Shares and wondered how much stock general Cafe-ites put in it. I just picked up Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract and it's been interesting so far.


It's a pretty good book. I used it a lot in the Honus vs A-Rod debate. It pretty much proves that Honus is still the #1 SS of all time. Right DK? :-)
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Postby DK » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:56 pm

LCBOY wrote:
Rkiivs wrote:Some good points, Hootie. Thanks for sharing.

I've just recently started wrapping my head around Win Shares and wondered how much stock general Cafe-ites put in it. I just picked up Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract and it's been interesting so far.


It's a pretty good book. I used it a lot in the Honus vs A-Rod debate. It pretty much proves that Honus is still the #1 SS of all time. Right DK? :-)


LCBOY, you never cease to berate me. :D
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Postby Tavish » Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:15 pm

I wouldn't think you would even need Bill James to win that argument LCBOY, its a suckers debate. :-)
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