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The Greatest Right-Handed Pitcher of alltime

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The Greatest Right-Handed Pitcher of ALLTIME?

Walter Johnson
22
38%
Pete Alexander
1
2%
Christy Mathewson
3
5%
Roger Clemens
13
22%
Pedro Martinez
6
10%
Greg Maddux
4
7%
Tom Seaver
4
7%
Bob Gibson
5
9%
 
Total votes : 58

Postby Los Angeles Cubs » Thu May 27, 2004 7:23 pm

LBJackal wrote:When I saw this poll, the first name that popped into my head before I even clicked on it was Walter Jhnson. So he got my vote.

Second of all, Nolan Ryan should not be on this list. Sure he had great longevity, but was never really "great". 9.5 career K/9 is good, but K's are over-valued in real life. WHIP is what matters, as well as ERA. Having lots of K's probably means you'll have a lower WHIP/ERA, but they don't help your team more than a groundout (unless that groundout advances a runner that ends up scoring, in which case ERA would be affected anyway). To me, if you consider K's in judging pitchers, you're counting them twice since you've already taken into account the lower ERA and WHIP a pitcher will have by getting all of those K's. If I really looked at the stats for the past 30 years or so, The Ryan Express probably wouldn't crack my top 25 righties. It probably wouldn't even be close. He could be dominant at times (the 7 no hitters attest to that), but overall, he wasn't anything special. An above-average ERA with a mediocre W/L record. That doesn't deserve to make the top 10 right-handed pitchers of all time.



mediocre record?
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Postby Tavish » Thu May 27, 2004 8:05 pm

If strikeouts dont matter I think that Cy Young should be on the list.
Last edited by Tavish on Fri May 28, 2004 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LBJackal » Fri May 28, 2004 12:43 am

Yes, mediocre record. If we let every pitcher with a 3.21 ERA and .562 W% in, then there would be hundreds of players on that poll. Bottom line: Ryan wasn't that good. He was above average for a long time, but never really great. He definately does not deserve to be anywhere near the top 20 righthanded SP's, let alone 10 or whatever this poll has.
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Postby HOOTIE » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:38 pm

Walter Johnson

Clemens modern era

Ryan was good, but in reality, he ranks about 25th alltime. The no hitters mean very little. While he was a K king, he was also the walk king. Even Ryan has admitted he was foolish to try and K every hitter, instead of focusing on outs.

Pedro has the best ERA+, but lacks the innings to be compared to Clemens. Pedro has the better peak, Clemens the career.
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:52 am

HOOTIE, you're saying Ryan is 25th all-time? I think you're being a bit generous. Of all people, you should realize he's mediocre. There are dozens (more than 2 dozen :-b ) better pitchers. His ERA was good, but not great, and his W/L record was nothing special at all. I'll give him points for longevity, but there are a lot more than 25 better than him.
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Postby frog99 » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:15 pm

LBJackal wrote:HOOTIE, you're saying Ryan is 25th all-time? I think you're being a bit generous. Of all people, you should realize he's mediocre. There are dozens (more than 2 dozen :-b ) better pitchers. His ERA was good, but not great, and his W/L record was nothing special at all. I'll give him points for longevity, but there are a lot more than 25 better than him.




Ryan could be in my top 25 but certianly not top 10.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:48 pm

LBJ I don't think i'm being generous. He's around 25th, give or take a few. That's dozens, well 2 anyway. I strongly disagree he's mediocre. You don't win 300+, and play 27 years being mediocre. He was above average, you know that. Imo, he's the most overrated player in history, due to many fans bringing up the no-hitters, 5,000 K's as reason he's the best, or close to it. He's in Sutton/Niekro/Jenkins/Drysdale territory.

Interesting that that vote has Pedro over Clemens. I don't people are considering the huge inning difference. Perdo with another 1,000 quality innings, might be there, but not yet.
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Postby LBJackal » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:23 am

HOOTIE wrote:LBJ I don't think i'm being generous. He's around 25th, give or take a few. That's dozens, well 2 anyway. I strongly disagree he's mediocre. You don't win 300+, and play 27 years being mediocre. He was above average, you know that. Imo, he's the most overrated player in history, due to many fans bringing up the no-hitters, 5,000 K's as reason he's the best, or close to it. He's in Sutton/Niekro/Jenkins/Drysdale territory.

Interesting that that vote has Pedro over Clemens. I don't people are considering the huge inning difference. Perdo with another 1,000 quality innings, might be there, but not yet.


Well like I said earlier in this thread, I think people value his K's far too much. They shouldn't be a factor when ranking pitchers. A K doesn't help more than any other kind of out. If there was a stat for infield popups, and Joe Schmoe had the most in history, along with a 3.21 ERA he wouldn't even be considered as top 25. S why, just because they're K's, do we rank Ryan so high? It's a glamour stat. A 3.21 ERA is good, but not top 25. Obviously, since he did it for so long, that helps his case, but a lot of his stats were due to staying around forever. He got a lot of wins, but also a lot of losses too. His W/L % was not anyhting special. The only thing he really has going for him is a good ERA and longevity. Just becase he could be above-average for 26 years doesn't make him better than somebody who was better than him for "only" 15-20 years.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:19 am

Los Angeles Cubs wrote:
frog99 wrote:Ryan had a career era of 3.19 while the leageu average was 3.57. For example Roger Clemens had a career ERA of 3.19 as well, but the league average was 4.48.


Nolan Ryan never was in Major league baseball when there was 30 teams and 28 teams for only 1 year. So all that extra pitching has well, you know.....


That doesn't hold water. Many, many guys, with fewer or as many teams as Ryan, had big ERA+.
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Postby DK » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:52 pm

LBJackal wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:LBJ I don't think i'm being generous. He's around 25th, give or take a few. That's dozens, well 2 anyway. I strongly disagree he's mediocre. You don't win 300+, and play 27 years being mediocre. He was above average, you know that. Imo, he's the most overrated player in history, due to many fans bringing up the no-hitters, 5,000 K's as reason he's the best, or close to it. He's in Sutton/Niekro/Jenkins/Drysdale territory.

Interesting that that vote has Pedro over Clemens. I don't people are considering the huge inning difference. Perdo with another 1,000 quality innings, might be there, but not yet.


Well like I said earlier in this thread, I think people value his K's far too much. They shouldn't be a factor when ranking pitchers. A K doesn't help more than any other kind of out. If there was a stat for infield popups, and Joe Schmoe had the most in history, along with a 3.21 ERA he wouldn't even be considered as top 25. S why, just because they're K's, do we rank Ryan so high? It's a glamour stat. A 3.21 ERA is good, but not top 25. Obviously, since he did it for so long, that helps his case, but a lot of his stats were due to staying around forever. He got a lot of wins, but also a lot of losses too. His W/L % was not anyhting special. The only thing he really has going for him is a good ERA and longevity. Just becase he could be above-average for 26 years doesn't make him better than somebody who was better than him for "only" 15-20 years.


Yeah, you wrote this June 3, but I just saw it.

A K is very different than any other out. K's eliminate the chance of luck. With a K you don't have to worry about your fielder's range trying to get to a ball.

Would you rather a pitcher strike someone out or hit a ground ball "just past the diving Jeter?"

If you find a pitcher with high K rates, low BB rates, and low HR rates, you've got a great pitcher.
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