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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sun May 09, 2004 3:16 pm

DK wrote:Adding on to LBJackal, don't pay attention to fielding percentage. To make an error, you at least have to do something right in the first place, unless the ball was hit at you. An error is a moral judgement by the scorekeeper, a record of what he thinks should have happened.

Pay attention to ZR (Zone Rating) and RF (Range Factor). Jeter's fielding statistics in each of these two have been among the worst in baseball the past four or five years.

Every time I hear about Jeter's fielding I hear "well, he makes this great diving play and turns and flips the ball home and blah-blah-blah".

First of all: The only reason he dives for everything is because he doesn't know how to position himself for certain hitters.

Second of all: He dives for everything and doesn't get everything. Those few times he does catch it, people make a huge deal out of it. In the Bill James Abstract, James mentions a 3rd basemen whom everyone considered to be a great fielder (His name escapes me). However, all he did was dive- for everything. He was just trying to look flashy.

Think of it this way. A pull hitter is up. Most shortstops think "OK, this guy is a pull hitter, so let me move over two steps". Jeter thinks, "I wonder how many women are looking at me". Then, smash! A ground ball to the side of Jeter. He makes a diving stab at the ball and snares it. The crowd applauds. The other SS, recognizing the pull hitter beforehand, makes a simple backhand grab, and nobody applauds him... The amount of balls hit to Jeter that he misses due to positioning DOES cost the Yankees games. It's just that the offense of that team makes up for his defense.


Fair enough, but the Yankees never had a superior offense over the 4 years that the Yankees won world series with him at short.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sun May 09, 2004 3:27 pm

DK wrote:
blankman wrote:Stats don't tell the whole story about defense, since there are so many factors that go into the amount of plays players make a game. There are so many factors that affect plays- groundball/flyball pitcher, the amount of strikeouts the pitcher has (NYY in particular tend to K more hitters than most from my memory), length of the infield grass and probably a few others. I buy that Jeter has bad range, especially last year due to his shoulder, but I will not agree that he costs the team more than 1 game ALL year.

In reality, defense IS overrated. Sure it can save 1 or 2 runs in a game, but not in every game. What matters more is what the players do at bat, when they can have a bigger effect on the actual outcome of the game.


I disagree. A recent study by NYM showed that roughly 70 balls not caught by 2002 CF's would have been caught by Mike Cameron. 70 balls=almost three games just there. When you factor in that not every ball in a game goes to CF, AND that the balls that did drop went for XBH (Chances are), that's a lot of hits and runs saved.

There's a piece in Moneyball about Johnny Damon. As most of you know, Johnny Damon was a great fielding CF for Oakland. When he left, Terrence Long was his replacement. Long is a below-average fielder. Using statistics, sabermetrics, and such, then-Assistant GM Now-LA-GM Paul DePodesta figured that having Long in CF would lose the A's about one run every ten games. That is not a trivial number for one fielder.

Now, Jeter, maybe the worst defensive SS in baseball, has more balls hit in his zone than a CF has hit into their zones. Having the worst defensive SS at the position than say, Omar Vizquel (I'm using him as an example) costs more than that, maybe about one run every seven games (I don't know the exact number, but it is more than 1/10). Again, not a trivial number lost by one fielder.

Therefore, it is easy to say that Jeter loses more than one game for his team overall over the course of a year.


Costing 1/10 runs doesn't put in the situation. Jeter may have made an error that cost some runs in a game the Yankees were winning 10-1. Costing runs like that doesn't prove that he blows alot of games at all.
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Postby DK » Sun May 09, 2004 3:28 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:Fair enough, but the Yankees never had a superior offense over the 4 years that the Yankees won world series with him at short.


That is not true. The team in 1998 had an AL-leading .362 OBP and four position player All-Stars. They were in the top 3 in the AL among R, H, BB, AVG, OBP, SB. They also were 4th in SLG.

In 1999, they finished top 3 in the AL in R, BB, AVG, OBP.

In 2000, they finished top 3 in the AL in nothing, although they did have three position-player All-Stars and nine categories in the top 6 of the AL.

In 2001, see 2000.

In 2002, they finished top 3 in the AL in R, H, HR, BB, SO, AVG, OBP, and SLG.

In 2003, they finished top 3 in the AL in R, HR, BB, and OBP.

They have always had a potent offense.
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Postby DK » Sun May 09, 2004 3:29 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:Costing 1/10 runs doesn't put in the situation. Jeter may have made an error that cost some runs in a game the Yankees were winning 10-1. Costing runs like that doesn't prove that he blows alot of games at all.


I fail to see your point. Sure, the Yankees may have been winning 10-1. But they also might have been winning only 3-2. The Yankees don't win every game 10-1, and it is over the course of a season. Not every ball Jeter doesn't get happens in a blowout.
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Postby DominicanLou » Sun May 09, 2004 5:16 pm

I do like the Texas infield, but I feel as if we are expecting a lot from young players. You cant assume that Tex and Blalock will develop into studs better than Giambi, Arod, Pujols, and Rolen. Also, I don't think Mike Young is this good. I might be wrong, but I do not feel that he will continue putting up the stats he is producing right now. So that only gives Texas the edge at second, where they blow everyone out of the water.

If I were a baseball GM today and could pick one of the infields to be mine, I would rank them: Cardinals, Yankees, Rangers.

In my opinion, Jeter is overrated and Giambi is not producing as he once was able to. For that reason I say the Cardinals would be the infield to have.

1st: Pujols>Giambi>Tex
2nd: Sori>Womack>Yankees platoon
3rd: Arod>Rolen>Blalock
SS: Renteria>Jeter>Young

No matter what you say about Jeter, right now he is a better baseball player than Young. Texas finished last in my rankings at 3 of the 4 positions, so they cannot have the better infield.

At the end of the year, after Young has full season at short, we might be saying Texas is the best infield in baseball, or we might say they dont even belong in the same breath as the Cards and Yanks. It all comes down to how Mike Young plays for the rest of the year.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sun May 09, 2004 5:33 pm

DK wrote:
ajgnydc722 wrote:Costing 1/10 runs doesn't put in the situation. Jeter may have made an error that cost some runs in a game the Yankees were winning 10-1. Costing runs like that doesn't prove that he blows alot of games at all.


I fail to see your point. Sure, the Yankees may have been winning 10-1. But they also might have been winning only 3-2. The Yankees don't win every game 10-1, and it is over the course of a season. Not every ball Jeter doesn't get happens in a blowout.


Exactly and that's why there is holes in the data you gave. Saying Jeter costs 1/10 or whatever doesn't mean he blows more than 1 game per year because it doesn't give the situations. For all we know the runs Jeter gave up meant nothing in the course of the game. That's why I'm saying those stats are irrelavent to Jeter blowing actual games.
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Postby Pokeyouindaeye » Sun May 09, 2004 5:39 pm

ajgnydc722 wrote:
DK wrote:
ajgnydc722 wrote:Costing 1/10 runs doesn't put in the situation. Jeter may have made an error that cost some runs in a game the Yankees were winning 10-1. Costing runs like that doesn't prove that he blows alot of games at all.


I fail to see your point. Sure, the Yankees may have been winning 10-1. But they also might have been winning only 3-2. The Yankees don't win every game 10-1, and it is over the course of a season. Not every ball Jeter doesn't get happens in a blowout.


Exactly and that's why there is holes in the data you gave. Saying Jeter costs 1/10 or whatever doesn't mean he blows more than 1 game per year because it doesn't give the situations. For all we know the runs Jeter gave up meant nothing in the course of the game. That's why I'm saying those stats are irrelavent to Jeter blowing actual games.


Good god, I hate arguments like this. I think just the fact that he could have caused the Yankees those losses also speaks volumes on Jeter's defensive shortcomings. But whatever, as long as the Yankees have their inferior SS working the SS position, I'm happy because that causes a loss of potential. By leaving Jeter in the SS position, the Yankees are squandering potential wins in favor of publicity.
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Postby blankman » Sun May 09, 2004 5:46 pm

Pokeyouindaeye wrote:By leaving Jeter in the SS position, the Yankees are squandering potential wins in favor of publicity.


Publicity? What extra publicity to they gain with Jeter playing SS and A-Rod at 3B as opposed to Jeter at 2B/3B and A-Rod at SS. They're still the same players, so I don't see how they gain publicity. Perhaps you mean a different word than publicity, because I don't see how publicity possibly relates to the issue.

Ok, lets say Jeter gives up runs with his defense. So what? He more than makes up for those runs with his bat.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Sun May 09, 2004 5:47 pm

I don't really want to get started on this whole A-Rod should be on short instead of Jeter crap, but I don't think the Yankees are leaving Jeter on SS for publicity.
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Postby KPucks » Sun May 09, 2004 5:52 pm

blankman wrote:
Ok, lets say Jeter gives up runs with his defense. So what? He more than makes up for those runs with his bat.

He hasn't so far this year.
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